Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-03-2007, 03:33 AM   #21  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Ottopilot's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 2,537
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CALPilotToo View Post
If the contract was worth a crap you would not be able to hold that seat as guys like me would either bid CA or not need to down bid to FO to have some QOL. If you two don't understand that then I'm wasting my breath.

Why can't you understand that my upgrade would be a better QOL? I have crap now, I bid CA and get the same crap with a huge raise. Sounds like a no brainer to me. Not everyone can be senior at the same time. I'm junior anyway you look at it. I might as well be junior for more money. I took a huge pay cut to go to CAL and upgrading would more than fix that.
Ottopilot is offline  
Old 08-03-2007, 08:09 AM   #22  
Gets Weekends Off
 
CALPilotToo's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 311
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottopilot View Post
Why can't you understand that my upgrade would be a better QOL? I have crap now, I bid CA and get the same crap with a huge raise. Sounds like a no brainer to me. Not everyone can be senior at the same time. I'm junior anyway you look at it. I might as well be junior for more money. I took a huge pay cut to go to CAL and upgrading would more than fix that.
Otto, it still isn't a pay raise. I'm not telling you you should not upgrade. I'm saying quit stating how good things are that CAL has 2-3 yr. CAs because the fact that this is happening demonstrates how bad our contract is. And I had descent hopes for C08. Oh, well. Because if you feel this way many other jr. pilots feel the same way. Get that YES pen ready. Just like C02.
CALPilotToo is offline  
Old 08-03-2007, 08:21 AM   #23  
Gets Weekends Off
 
CALPilotToo's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 311
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAL EWR View Post
Hey I understand. I am just trying to say nothing is going to change until the new contract. So bid what you want.

.
Yea, but you shouldn't support junior guys bragging how good things are at CAL on public forums that they can hold CA after ONLY being here for 2-3 years. Management knows this and realizes the junior guys just don't get it and won't be willing to rock the boat. Same as C02. You should be expalinaing how bad our contract is and that is the ONLY reason we have 2-3 yr. guys holding CA. No other reason than that. Yes, bid it and enjoy the CA pay but understand while they are getting a 100% upgrade rate it is not a pay raise. It should be even a lot more than that along with much better work rules. A pay raise is when a company pays you more than you are making today for the same staus and equipment. Not upgrading. Just like when I bid B777FO I am not taking a pay cut. The pay rates for the status and equipment have not changed.

I agree that if the slot is available bid it but quit making it sound like everything here is great because I'm going to be a CA in 3 years. It kills the effort to truly get a pay raise across the board on the next contract.

Maybe I should not worry about fighting for a pay raise in the 3-5 year CA range as these guys are obviously tickled to death right now with what they've got. I'll expect all the money to be in 10 year plus side of the pay rates.
CALPilotToo is offline  
Old 08-03-2007, 10:49 AM   #24  
Ben Salley
 
A320fumes's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 743
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CALPilotToo View Post
Yea, but you shouldn't support junior guys bragging how good things are at CAL on public forums that they can hold CA after ONLY being here for 2-3 years. Management knows this and realizes the junior guys just don't get it and won't be willing to rock the boat. Same as C02. You should be expalinaing how bad our contract is and that is the ONLY reason we have 2-3 yr. guys holding CA. No other reason than that. Yes, bid it and enjoy the CA pay but understand while they are getting a 100% upgrade rate it is not a pay raise. It should be even a lot more than that along with much better work rules. A pay raise is when a company pays you more than you are making today for the same staus and equipment. Not upgrading. Just like when I bid B777FO I am not taking a pay cut. The pay rates for the status and equipment have not changed.

I agree that if the slot is available bid it but quit making it sound like everything here is great because I'm going to be a CA in 3 years. It kills the effort to truly get a pay raise across the board on the next contract.

Maybe I should not worry about fighting for a pay raise in the 3-5 year CA range as these guys are obviously tickled to death right now with what they've got. I'll expect all the money to be in 10 year plus side of the pay rates.
I agree with your post about 99.9%. Cal new-hires should not be bragging about how "good" things are at CAL. If I took the upgrade @ CAL, I would be back to my pay in 2001, pre-CAL. Fortunately, I don't have to do it for the money and won't because being junior @ CAL is terrible. Being relatively senior, 50%, is bad. The disparity between being a reserve and a line-holder @ CAL is not the company's fault, it's ours. Most Union's eat their young, but @ CAL it's absolutely ab-horrible;29k/hr to fly a 777 with no health insurance. I'll be voting no for any contract negotiated by "pilots". IMHO, CAL is heads and shoulders above our competitor's, no offense as I think we should all feel that way about the company we chose. For the life of me, I can't understand why we are playing bush-league negotiations without a professional negotiator, and not the ALPA one! I don't know how many times I've heard Captains tell me "that's just the way the company is", as if we don't have any culpability in our sh!tty existence and lack of the company's respect; sprawled across exit-row seats in coach on our way from Berlin. Our plight is a direct result of that group of quasi-pilots who sold their souls and nuts to F Lorenzo. The new-hires now outnumber those guys and can probably offset the 1996 votes that Lorenzo bought '83-'85. Captains.......Please do all you can to mentor your new-hires as to the ways of the company. Remember, this is the best job most new-hires have ever had. They need your guidance. BTW, a big congrats to the NWA pilot group, especially the Captains, solidarity and balls still exist somewhere.
A320fumes is offline  
Old 08-03-2007, 12:42 PM   #25  
Gets Weekends Off
 
CALPilotToo's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 311
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAL EWR View Post
However the fact that we have soon to be 2-3 year captains is something to be happy about. .
Then I know now you don't get it. If we had 2-3 year CAs as a result of growth, and a good contract I would agree. But having 2-3 yr. CAs now only illustrates how bad our contract truly is. Nothing about that makes me happy. The company has been successfull in inverting our seniority list.
CALPilotToo is offline  
Old 08-03-2007, 02:24 PM   #26  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
CAL EWR's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 258
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CALPilotToo View Post
Then I know now you don't get it. If we had 2-3 year CAs as a result of growth, and a good contract I would agree. But having 2-3 yr. CAs now only illustrates how bad our contract truly is. Nothing about that makes me happy. The company has been successfully in inverting our seniority list.
You are full of it. Yes it is good news we have an expansion bid instead of a reduction one. You seem to have been as long or longer than me. How many times over the years have we had no vacancies, net zero or reduction bids? Oh and during those times we had even worse working conditions than we do now. Don't accuse me of being in la la land. I know what a POS contract we have. I also know if we had a real contract we would have to hire another 1000 without one additional airframe or pilot retirement.

I tell this to every new hire I fly with and every one I talk to in the crew room, wx room, layovers etc. I am ready to give up my career if we don't succeed in contract 08. Don't tell me though I can't show some optimism because of expansion. After all at the very least it is helping everyone of our pilots career expectations in the more than likely event of a merger.

I talk union and educate every pilot I fly with everyday about CAL history from Bob Six to Lorenzo to present regime, railway labor act, contract negotiating cycles, credible strike threats and how POS 02 happened and what I tried to do to prevent it. Funny I don't remember your name signed to the bottom of thousands of letters to the membership two years before the TA of contract 02 warning the membership to wake up? What about all the LEC meetings and P2P conference calls you particpated in standing up to scumbags Panerallo, Pacelli, Stivila and Muir? Where you there because I'm sorry but I don't know who you are? Oh and what committee are you volunteering for to help us get a real contract?

I am ready to give significant time with my family to work yet again for our union and pilot group. I do all above even though I am sick and tired of doing it and taking hours each trip but most captains around here complain and do nothing else. It is amazing how no one educates the new hires. I walk the walk and am prepared to make tremendous sacrifices for contract 08. What are you doing except hiding behind your handle in anonymity taking shots and being your normal negative self? Oh but according to you "I still don't get", yes I do more than you ever will!

If you're going to take shots at someone at least have the balls to sign your post!


Jayson Baron
EWR 756 CA

Last edited by CAL EWR; 08-03-2007 at 02:51 PM.
CAL EWR is offline  
Old 08-03-2007, 03:24 PM   #27  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
CAL EWR's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 258
Default

Since "I still don't get it" and according to you I should be educating new hires ok I will. He is one of my writings to the membership during the ratification of POS 02. Those new hires who fly with me read this and other of my efforts to wake up this pilot group before we were lied to and ratified POS 02

*MUST READ*


THE TRUTH ABOUT YOUR NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE
I am fully committed to the integrity and honesty of our union as well as those who lead it. Over the past year I have doubled my efforts to ensure our pilots are represented by a team of pilots who not only believe in you the line pilot, but are also the kind of individuals we can blindly trust to protect and enhance our careers. To that end it is the observation of many pilots including myself that the current negotiating team has lost the focus and drive to achieve the objectives of the pilots they represent.

What is written below comes from an unknown author. I believe the majority of what is written below to be accurate. I am not saying our company does not have a legitimate need for concessions. What I am saying is I believe we do not have the proper team of pilot negotiators in place to negotiate the least amount of reductions in pay, benefits and work rules to an already sub standard contract to assist the company in their current financial crisis.

Tom Stivala and our negotiators have not lived under contract 97. Tom Stivala told your MEC leaders he has received at least four job offers outside of Continental Airlines. If Tom and our negotiators move up within ALPA, Continental management, or leave the company all together, the possibility exists they will not live under contract 2002.

You deserve to know the answers to the questions below. After reading this letter if you share my uneasiness please contact your elected representatives, voice your concerns and demand answers.

Additionally you may not be aware our MEC faces an impending financial crisis. You may want to ask our leaders why the entire MEC which includes all of our Local Council Representatives are on trip loss for the month of February to staff our base crew rooms along side P2P volunteers. Why is this huge expenditure necessary when there is no tentative agreement to explain and no new information available since last month’s system wide road shows? You may want to also inquire as to why your reserve scheduling subcommittee (made up mostly of line pilots) was denied trip loss because of the expense.


Fraternally,

Jayson Baron
EWR B737 CA
[email protected]



It’s a Question of Integrity


Very Soon the Continental ALPA Negotiating Committee will craft a Tentative Agreement.

Very Soon the Continental MEC will vote on whether to send out that TA for membership ratification.




Very Soon Continental ALPA members will vote on a contract that will last 2 to 7 years. No-- It won’t be the “Contract of Your Career”. No--- It won’t be Industry Leading. Yes-- We will “Take Our Place”. That place will be determined by our Negotiating Team. Unless our 9 elected leaders-- our MEC—have the courage to make a few changes to Our Team.

The week of January 10, 2005 may well be our only opportunity to try to change the mindset of our Union’s Negotiating Committee and Union Leadership.

Some of us feel this NC Team has succumbed to negotiating Stockholm syndrome, under the constant barrage of daily bad news in the airline industry. Some of us feel this Team has grown far too close to management. Some of us feel this Team has taken care of its needs first. Some of us feel our MEC must at a minimum make several changes to this Team.

How can we trust that this Team is watching out for our careers instead of their own future?

We must ask the hard questions to determine the integrity of the individuals on this Team prior to giving them our Trust and prior to our MEC sending in this Team to “Speak for Us”, and negotiate OUR Contract.

Let’s ask for answers to the following questions before our MEC sends in this NC Team: The answers to the questions below, are merely calculated estimates. The individual answers from Stivala, Muir and Karnes or their refusal to answer, should reveal their integrity, honesty, and priorities as Union negotiators.

Q: Was one of your first negotiations with management in 2000, to change the provisions of C97 and provide the NC members with PS4 travel benefits instead of Contract 97’s PS5 travel for committee personnel?
A: Yes.

Did Captain Stivala use PS4 status for family members personal travel?
A: Yes.

How much money did Captain Stivala make as a Reserve B737 Captain in 2003 and 2004?
A: approximately $225,000. Cost to Union with expenses approximately $325,000 per year.

Q: Same for Captain Rick Muir?
A: Same Answer.




Q: Same Question for F/O Bill Karnes?
A: As a B737 Reserve F/O, with 5 years seniority,
better than $125,000. Cost to Union, almost $200,000.

Q: How many Hours has Captain Stivala flown for Continental in the past seven years since January 1998?
A: Upgraded to B737 Captain in 1998, flew @130 hours of IOE/Consolidation. IN seven years since IOE, have flown @ 150-200 hours total.

Q: How many Hours of Flight Pay Loss has Captain Stivala received in the last 7 years?
A: Approximately 8,300 Pay Hours.

Q: Same Questions for Muir and Karnes?
A: Approximately the same answers.

Q: How many days of Reserve have you spent on C97 as a junior Captain?
A: Zero

Q: How many Holidays such as Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving, July 4th, Memorial Day, Labor Day, MLK Day, President’s Day, or personal important days like, kids birthdays, wife’s birthday, anniversaries, have you flown, or been on Reserve duty, since 1998?
A: Zero

Q: Are you trained on the airplane you are being paid for:
A: No.

Q: Following the 9-11-01 system reduction bids, did you bid Guam Captain to ensure that you maximized the amount of Flight Pay Loss that you received?
A: Yes.

Q: Have you ever been trained on Air Mike or flown from the GUM domicile?
A: No.

Q: Were you unable to hold any domestic Captain position following 9-11 furloughs and therefore would have taken a pay cut like others with your system seniority?
A: Yes

Q: In 1997, when you were the IACP IAH F/O Rep, did you support President Nikolai to fire the C97 Negotiating Committee and replace them with yourself and the IAH Captain Rep?
A: Yes.




Q: When Captain Stivala was a People Express pilot, did you pay your share of the PEX Pilots merger Fund?
A: No, Paid Zero, but then again neither did Pacelli.

Q: Have you ever discussed your future at Continental or a non pilot job working with former CAL Sr. VP Mike Campbell?
A: ???

Q: Did you meet with former IAH Captain Rep Tripson to plot the recall effort against MEC Chairman Captain Pat Burke?
A: Yes.

Q: Did you and your Team of Muir and Karnes support NC Chairman Panarello’s successful effort to recall Captain Burke at the March 2002 MEC meeting?
A: Yes

Q: Did you sign a resignation letter in August 2004 effective if the MEC did not approve a FPL policy?
A: Yes.

Q: Did you suggest to IAH Captain Rep Stone in August 2004, an amendment to the FPL policy to include a “best-held” provision?
A: Yes.

Q: Did you know this would raise your pay rate to $203.79 per hour as a B737 pilot at more than 97 hours pay per month?
A: Yes.
CAL EWR is offline  
Old 08-03-2007, 03:27 PM   #28  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
CAL EWR's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 258
Default


Questions For Muir:

Q: Did you apply to be hired as the Cleveland Chief Pilot?
A: Yes.

Q: Did you interview for that management position with VP Flight Ops Fred Abbott and other managers, while you were still a member of the CAL ALPA NC?
A: Yes.

Q: Did you return to line flying following your resignation from the NC?
A: No.

Q: Did you continue to receive full time trip loss from the Union after resigning from the NC?
A: Yes.



Q: Are you partners in a private business with Steve Pacelli and Tom Stivala?
A: Yes.

Q: Have you conducted the business of your private venture while being paid as a Full Time Union Pilot since 1998?
A: Yes.

Q: Did F/O Karnes attend a real estate agent school while on Union full time trip loss?
A: Yes.

If the questions and actual answers disturb you, and if you feel they will affect your future, we suggest you contact the MEC Reps Very Soon. Demand that our MEC determine the answers to these Questions of Integrity and decide if these individuals are going to “Speak for Us” and be authorized to negotiate our new Contract.

Chairman Jay Panarello: [email protected]
Vice Chairman Mike Bowen: [email protected]
S/T Steve Pacelli: [email protected]

EWR Captain Rep. Bob Young: [email protected]
IAH Captain Rep. Bruce Stone: [email protected]
CLE Captain Rep. Jim Blackford: [email protected]
GUM Captain Rep. Dale Surdick: [email protected]
FI Rep. Captain Tom Howard: [email protected]
EWR F/O Rep. Randy Newman: [email protected]
IAH F/O Rep. Bob Shoemaker: [email protected]
CLE F/O Rep. Jeff Dickson: [email protected]
GUM F/O Rep. Steve Heckler: [email protected]













CAL EWR is offline  
Old 08-03-2007, 03:31 PM   #29  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
CAL EWR's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 258
Default

This was my attempt to wake up the pilot group as to who was leading us a year and a half before the TA of POS 02.


June 30, 2004


Jayson Baron
Newark B737 CA
[email protected]



Air Line Pilot’s Association
Continental Airlines Master Executive Council
Houston, TX 77032


Members of the Continental Airlines Master Executive Council, my name is Jayson Baron. I’m a B737 captain based in Newark.

I am writing to ask all of you to please listen to a recording of the last P2P conference call that is available on the P2P section of the CALALPA web site. I participated in this conference call and expressed significant frustration with our MEC, Negotiating Committee and Negotiating Counsel. A noteworthy point made by SPC Chairman Andy Cameron was that my frustrations and concerns were out of the purview of P2P and that I needed to make my feelings known to my elected representatives. I have spoken to both of my Newark representatives and expressed my feelings and now I am sharing them with you, CALALPA’s highest governing body. Simply put, you are losing or have already lost many of your staunchunion supporters/activists like me.

Since the above-mentioned conference call, I have received countless phone calls, e-mails, etc., from other pilots telling me that they listened to the call and wanted me to know that they agreed with my sentiments. One comment relayed by many who heard the conference call is that the message I was trying to deliver went completely over the heads of the participants on the conference call at CALALPA headquarters. What I would like to do in this message is clarify my position so hopefully when you listen to the conference call you can better understand my frustrations and appreciate my concern. I believe many who work for our union have lost sight of the line pilot’s perspective and needs.

I want to make perfectly clear that my frustrations do not stem from the fact that we are negotiating a contract in probably the worst economic environment ever in the history of airline union negotiations. I fully understand that the landscape has changed significantly and I in no way expect contract ‘02 to look anything like the pre-concessionary contracts at Delta or Northwest. However, that doesn’t mean we should just roll over and let management have their way with us.





My biggest concern is that our MEC is not representing our pilots in the same manner as our peer pilots’ unions. Our communications internally and externally are terrible and, quite frankly, embarrassing. I believe this is in large part due to our negotiating counsel, Ken Cooper, and, to a lesser extent, our negotiating committee.

One needs to look closely at last year’s America West contract negotiations that resulted in two tentative agreements being turned down by the membership, before the third tentative agreement was ratified to gain some insight into Ken Cooper’s mindset. Ken was directly involved in negotiating their first tentative agreement (rejected by nearly a three-to-one margin) before moving on to represent our MEC.

After talking with many America West pilots, I have learned that there was a significant difference in overall quality in the second and third tentative agreements as opposed to the first proposal. It is also my understanding that Ken believed America West pilots would not do any better by rejecting the agreement he helped negotiate. The America West pilots I have talked with tell me there were major improvements in the subsequent tentative agreements, and the swing in the voting margin supports this point.

I have heard some argue the America West pilots didn’t do any better in the second and third tentative agreements. “The cost of the agreements were the same and they essentially just moved around the deck chairs because ATSB restrictions made it difficult to extract more dollars,” according to some.

However, I think it’s important to point out that dollars were allocated more in line with what the membership wanted for improvements, not with what the then leadership or negotiating counsel told them they wanted. It’s also important to note that after the first tentative agreement was rejected, both the MEC officers and negotiating committee were recalled.

Since Ken Cooper became our negotiating counsel, I have noticed a distinct and growing change in our MEC officers’ and negotiating committee’s views on external communications. I see a significant change in how we deal with Continental management. While I commend you, our leadership, in establishing a dialog with our president and future CEO, I believe we must continue to pressure management via the media and other ways just as our peers at Delta, Northwest, American, United and US Airways have all done in the past and present to extract leverage and have our views heard.

Apparently Ken Cooper believes in an interest-based, non-abrasive, don’t ruffle any feathers approach to bargaining. This type of approach will fail when dealing with the likes of Mike Campbell and his negotiating team.





CAL EWR is offline  
Old 08-03-2007, 03:31 PM   #30  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
CAL EWR's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 258
Default








It’s your job to set policy and direction and make changes to personnel as required. The MEC is higher on the union structure than the negotiating committee, but from my perspective it sure looks the other way around.

The members of our negotiating committee are extremely talented and dedicated and have made huge personal sacrifices over the past four years. However, when you look at the roller coaster of ups and downs over these last four years - mostly downs - it’s totally understandable to have a negotiating committee that is battle-fatigued, especially when fed a continuous diet of doom and gloom from the very savvy and experienced management negotiating team.

It’s your job to recognize this and make appropriate changes to rectify the situation. When you listen to the conference call, listen closely to how Mike Hynes answers not only my comments but virtually every other caller’s comments. What I hear from Mike is very similar to what I and many others hear from the negotiating committee, a defensive, condescending, and somewhat arrogant tone - especially when anyone questions their actions.

At this time, I don’t believe we should recall our negotiating committee; however, I feel it would be an appropriate time to temporarily send them back to the line. We all know Continental has a staffing problem and we could certainly use the help. This would also give the negotiating committee members some perspective and a chance to experience first-hand, the reality of what our membership deals with every day. Four or more years of full-time trip loss is too much time for any union official to be away from the line. I would much rather have our negotiators return to the line than spin numbers on potential concession scenarios.

Another area of significant concern is Mike Bowen, our MEC Vice Chairman. I have only spoken to Mike on two occasions in the recent past. The first was just prior to or during the Iraq war last year and the second time was on the P2P conference call last Tuesday. Both times he acted the same - severely dejected, “battle fatigued,” or, more appropriately stated, someone who is suffering from the “Stockholm syndrome.”

For example, on the conference call Mike made statements like “the airline business will be a whole lot different (if Bush wins in November), we may not have very many current pilots flying our airplanes…In eight days Chris Lynch and I who interviewed together, started class together will be in this business eighteen years. This certainly isn’t what we signed up for at all…There are some of us questioning whether we’re going to be airline pilots ten years from now. I should have studied in school.”
CAL EWR is offline  
 
 
 

 
Post Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:58 PM.