Enough said. If you want to poke fun at someone's typo, make sure you don't screw your next post up. Seriously though, how hard is it to have a serious conversation without someone getting all wound up. What happened to professionalism?

 

Author is given credit at the bottom of the article. This should help some you out that think it's easy to point fingers. Let the full report come out. I, for one, have seen snow in a DC-9 a few years ago that I thought was going to make us a statistic. They said the runway had been groomed -- yeah about two hours before our arrival! Now back to the subject:

NTSB: SWA overrun caused by pilot error, use of poor data

Thursday October 4, 2007
US National Transportation Safety Board concluded that the probable cause of the Southwest Airlines 737-700 runway overrun in December 2005 at Chicago Midway "was the pilots' failure to use available reverse thrust in a timely manner" and to use the best data to calculate landing distance.
The aircraft veered from the runway after landing and crashed through a boundary fence onto a road next to the airport, striking a car and killing a six-year-old child.
NTSB said late Tuesday that the pilots' lack of familiarity with the -700's autobrake system "distracted them from thrust reverser usage during the challenging landing." Also contributing to the crash was a failure to use the best information to calculate landing distance, the board said. "As we approach the winter months we continue to push for acceptance of a minimum safety margin so that this type of accident does not occur again," NTSB Chairman Mark Rosenker said.
The investigation revealed that as the flight neared Midway, the pilots "received mixed braking action reports for the landing runway. The flight crew used an onboard laptop performance computer provided in the cockpit of SWA's airplanes to calculate expected landing distance. They entered multiple scenarios including wind speed and direction, airplane gross weight at touchdown and reported runway braking action." Based on their calculations, they decided they could land safely.
However, NTSB stated, "the accident pilots were not aware that stopping margins displayed by the OPC for poor runway conditions were in some cases based on a lower tailwind component than that which was presented. Also, the accident pilots were not aware that the stopping margins computed by the SWA OPC incorporated the use of thrust reversers for their model aircraft, the 737-700, which resulted in more favorable stopping margins." If they had been aware of these factors, they "might have elected to divert to another airport."
In the aftermath of the accident, NTSB in January 2006 issued an urgent safety recommendation to FAA "to prohibit airlines from using credit for the use of thrust reversers when calculating stopping distances" (ATWOnline, Dec. 8, 2006). In this week's report, the board issued a new urgent safety recommendation that calls on FAA "to immediately require operators to conduct arrival landing distance assessments before every landing based on existing performance data, actual conditions and incorporating a minimum safety margin of 15%."

by Aaron Karp

 

LB,

You are correct about my typo on the year of the stike. I am not sure I would put it in the category of lying, but if you think I was have at it. I have lived around this industry long enough to be very familiar with UAL and their history so I apologized for my typo.

My wife has a Phd in Psychology so she is on par with the pilots who fancy themselves as "brain" surgeons. I would not ask her advice on anything related to the airline industry as her interest beyond my paycheck is minimal.
Her statement about going to SWA vs a "legacy" was in reference to the furloughs that were happening during the first Gulf War.

Your statements about the MDW accident are very accurate right up to the point where you insulted SWA on their pay for training. Please don't get me started on pilot qualifications as evidenced by UAL's hiring practices. One way or another we all pay for our training and I look back and see it as the best 8k I ever spent. Just a different perspective than yours.

BTW I took two UAL guys to their destination yesterday and they seemed like great guys.

Your venom towards SWA is quite obvious. Perhaps you could use the counseling services of my wife the pschologist. It has done wonders for me over the years

 

Yet again you are typo-ing. UAL did not furlough during the first gulf war. We were one of the few that did not furlough pilots during that period.

 

I dont think he said UAL. Look at the quote it says a "legacy". Not specifically UAL.

"As to the MDW accident. You have a carrier that refuses to allow the use of auto-thrust, auto brakes, VNAV. What did the lack of these items have to do with the MDW crash? It reflects the company's personality of cowboy flying. BUR comes to mind as another good example. These items don't necessarily create a safer flight but they are workload tools. What about the 2 hours before the crash that they were managing the airplane in a manner that would have been eased if they had access to auto-throttles? Dumbing down the airplane to meet the Pay For Training new hires that SWA takes is a shame on the carrier. These items are tools that can add to the safety of a flight if you let them. Think the two guys that said they did not know the SOP needed to take the highest performance hit that made it illegal for them to land would have preferred to have more BB's to use in the planning? Give them throttles and they have one less thing to worry about."

Are they auto thrust or auto throttles? One sentence you say we dont need these for the dumbing down of the A/C for new hires. Then you say how much it eases the workload. Well which is it? Auto throttles are not that hard to use. Unlike the 300hr wonder pilots that United has hired. I am sure they are all aces. Oh thats right some cant/wont ever upgrade, due to their lack of flying ability. I am sure UAL has never had an accident. Right? Lets not rehash some of Uniteds misfortunes you idiot. Get a life. I guess SWA turned your God like a55 down and thats the reason for the bitterness.

 

Is he possibly talking about the Summer of Love? Wasn't that 1995? There have been so many job actions over at UAL it's hard to keep up with them...sounds like a happy place!

 

If it's alright with everyone else, I'd like to learn a few things from this unfortunate mishap...hopefully, to not repeat them myself or otherwise....

Was there any evidence that the approach was not stabilized...especially given the possibility of a tailwind and higher than normal descent rates.

Does SWA also have paper-form landing distance charts to coicide with the OPS computer. Do they have "wet" charts ?

Does SWA incorporate the use of thrust reversers in calculating landing distance...I thought landing distance was always calculated without the use of T/Rs.

Also, what was this that the Capt tried the T/Rs then the F/O tried them ??? Transfer of control on the landing rollout at apparent high speed regime..is that true ???

I never flew the 737-700 and in my old age I forgot what the -200 used, but aren't spoilers and autobrakes a function of weight on wheels and wheel spinup ? On the MD-11, the center engine T/R activates once the nosewheel is on the ground.

Thanks sorry for all the questions, but maybe we (or I) can get a few tidbits out of this as an ounce of prevention....Thank you.

FF

 

Just a thought, but you may want to do a little introspection before casting a load of stones at us unprofessional, guppy driving, cowboys.

Fatal Events and Fatal Event Rates of Airlines in the United States and Canada Since 1970

The following values for each airline includes the number of fatal events since 1970, the Full Loss Equivalent (FLE*) for each airline, the year of the most recent fatal event, the number of flights since 1970, and an estimate of the fatal event rate per million flights.
Airline Rate Flights FLE* Events Last

Southwest Airlines 0.00 15.26M 0.00 0 -
United Airlines** 0.31 21.9M 6.69 11 2001(2)

source; http://www.airsafe.com/airline.htm

Perhaps you are confusing 'professionalism' with 'gross arrogance'. Do you have anything of any positive value to contribute? Good luck with your issues. P.S., even though they work with and associate with you, UAL pilots are always welcome on my jump seat.

 

NTSB final report is pending, this is the link to the Board Presentation. Lot's of learning available.

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/Boardmeeting.htm

 

I too have problems with SW and the way they fly the jet. Problem is, they have the best safety record in the USA if not the world. They fly to all the challenging airports. They fly more passengers than anyone. They do it better/safer than all other airlines. How do they do it? I personally believe it is because they fly so much. They fly the hell out of the 737. More legs per day and more legs per month. They get a lot of practice. (more than I want to fly)