Oil Surges above $85/barrel
10-26-2007, 11:36 AM
#72
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Too Nit Pick
1) If I remember my science correctly, plants also produce CO2 at night during the light independant stage of photosynthesis.
2) The president tried to use the land available of the newly closed military bases to have refineries built but that idea was shot down by the enviromentalists.
3) The cost to produce a gallon of gas or Jet A hasn't changed. But the twits on Wall Street keep using speculation to drive up the price of oil thats why the oil company's profits have increases so much.
4) Anyone who thinks taxing the oil companies is the answer doesn't realize that in the end we'll eat that tax too. Does anyone really think the oil companies are paying .50 a gallon in taxes or is it the consumer?
2) The president tried to use the land available of the newly closed military bases to have refineries built but that idea was shot down by the enviromentalists.
3) The cost to produce a gallon of gas or Jet A hasn't changed. But the twits on Wall Street keep using speculation to drive up the price of oil thats why the oil company's profits have increases so much.
4) Anyone who thinks taxing the oil companies is the answer doesn't realize that in the end we'll eat that tax too. Does anyone really think the oil companies are paying .50 a gallon in taxes or is it the consumer?
10-26-2007, 02:13 PM
#74
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There are many alternatives to energy take your pick(wind, solar, ethanol, hydrogen) or a combo of each.
Wind--One wind turbine can power 500 homes. There's enough wind energy in Western South Dakota to power the whole country. The coal lobby has blocked all effort for any wind farms in that area.
Solar--Technology is advancing dramatically, and becoming very practical and econmical.
Ethanol--Corn sucks for ethanol, the only reason we use it is because we grow it in abundance. Switchgrass is not only native, it grows fast, needs no fertilizers, and one acre can produce 1,000 gallons of ethanol a year. That's almost 10 times what corn can produce.
Hydrogen--The true answer to long term renewable energy. If we would of taken the trillion dollars spent in Iraq for their oil and invested it in a "Manhatten Project" type approach to our energy needs, the Middle East would be somebody elses problem.
Oil companies are the biggest lobby against any government research for alternative energy.
Wind--One wind turbine can power 500 homes. There's enough wind energy in Western South Dakota to power the whole country. The coal lobby has blocked all effort for any wind farms in that area.
Solar--Technology is advancing dramatically, and becoming very practical and econmical.
Ethanol--Corn sucks for ethanol, the only reason we use it is because we grow it in abundance. Switchgrass is not only native, it grows fast, needs no fertilizers, and one acre can produce 1,000 gallons of ethanol a year. That's almost 10 times what corn can produce.
Hydrogen--The true answer to long term renewable energy. If we would of taken the trillion dollars spent in Iraq for their oil and invested it in a "Manhatten Project" type approach to our energy needs, the Middle East would be somebody elses problem.
Oil companies are the biggest lobby against any government research for alternative energy.
10-26-2007, 02:41 PM
#75
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Hydrogen
Originally Posted by Sparky
There are many alternatives to energy take your pick(wind, solar, ethanol, hydrogen) or a combo of each.
Wind--One wind turbine can power 500 homes. There's enough wind energy in Western South Dakota to power the whole country. The coal lobby has blocked all effort for any wind farms in that area.
Solar--Technology is advancing dramatically, and becoming very practical and econmical.
Ethanol--Corn sucks for ethanol, the only reason we use it is because we grow it in abundance. Switchgrass is not only native, it grows fast, needs no fertilizers, and one acre can produce 1,000 gallons of ethanol a year. That's almost 10 times what corn can produce.
Hydrogen--The true answer to long term renewable energy. If we would of taken the trillion dollars spent in Iraq for their oil and invested it in a "Manhatten Project" type approach to our energy needs, the Middle East would be somebody elses problem.
Oil companies are the biggest lobby against any government research for alternative energy.
Wind--One wind turbine can power 500 homes. There's enough wind energy in Western South Dakota to power the whole country. The coal lobby has blocked all effort for any wind farms in that area.
Solar--Technology is advancing dramatically, and becoming very practical and econmical.
Ethanol--Corn sucks for ethanol, the only reason we use it is because we grow it in abundance. Switchgrass is not only native, it grows fast, needs no fertilizers, and one acre can produce 1,000 gallons of ethanol a year. That's almost 10 times what corn can produce.
Hydrogen--The true answer to long term renewable energy. If we would of taken the trillion dollars spent in Iraq for their oil and invested it in a "Manhatten Project" type approach to our energy needs, the Middle East would be somebody elses problem.
Oil companies are the biggest lobby against any government research for alternative energy.
I did see a special where a college professor was able to use something other than traditional electricity to separate the H2O molecule. He said the problem was that it was still more expensive then oil. However, if this were to be duplicated and massed produced, the price would be driven down immediately. Then try flying a plane into a building with the tanks full of water.
10-26-2007, 03:27 PM
#76
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
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Posts: 2,350
Originally Posted by Sparky
There are many alternatives to energy take your pick(wind, solar, ethanol, hydrogen) or a combo of each.
Wind--One wind turbine can power 500 homes. There's enough wind energy in Western South Dakota to power the whole country. The coal lobby has blocked all effort for any wind farms in that area.
Solar--Technology is advancing dramatically, and becoming very practical and econmical.
Ethanol--Corn sucks for ethanol, the only reason we use it is because we grow it in abundance. Switchgrass is not only native, it grows fast, needs no fertilizers, and one acre can produce 1,000 gallons of ethanol a year. That's almost 10 times what corn can produce.
Hydrogen--The true answer to long term renewable energy. If we would of taken the trillion dollars spent in Iraq for their oil and invested it in a "Manhatten Project" type approach to our energy needs, the Middle East would be somebody elses problem.
Oil companies are the biggest lobby against any government research for alternative energy.
Wind--One wind turbine can power 500 homes. There's enough wind energy in Western South Dakota to power the whole country. The coal lobby has blocked all effort for any wind farms in that area.
Solar--Technology is advancing dramatically, and becoming very practical and econmical.
Ethanol--Corn sucks for ethanol, the only reason we use it is because we grow it in abundance. Switchgrass is not only native, it grows fast, needs no fertilizers, and one acre can produce 1,000 gallons of ethanol a year. That's almost 10 times what corn can produce.
Hydrogen--The true answer to long term renewable energy. If we would of taken the trillion dollars spent in Iraq for their oil and invested it in a "Manhatten Project" type approach to our energy needs, the Middle East would be somebody elses problem.
Oil companies are the biggest lobby against any government research for alternative energy.
From the Texas State Energy Conservation Office. "It takes only one MW to serve the electricity needs of 250 to 300 homes on average each day" That is only household use averaged for the year. Double that for the peak summer months. From the same source,
"The Horse Hollow Wind Energy Center in Texas remains the largest wind farm in the world with a total capacity of 735 megawatts (MW) spread across approximately 47,000 acres in Taylor and Nolan counties near Abilene in west central Texas.
The wind plant consists of 291 1.5-MW wind turbines from General Electric and 130 2.3-MW wind turbines from Siemens.
One MW is enough electricity to serve 250 to 300 homes on average each day."
Do the math, how many acres of land to power the whole state much less a region or country.
You ever seen one of these turbines? They are BIG. Wind is a nice supplement but not the answer. OBTW, an oil company wanted to put wind farms off the East Coast and the rich Libs in Martha's Vinyard (Kennedy) squashed the project.
Solar technology is nowhere near efficient or powerful enough to power a home much less a city.
The ethanol process takes more energy than it produces. No matter what you use you still have to farm it. Bought milk or bread lately? How about meat or a tortilla. The price of food is going through the roof because we are burning it. Switchgrass would cause the same problem. Fossil fuels to farm it and produce it plus all the arable land it would take from food production.
Hydrogen is promising but it still takes more energy to produce hydrogen from water than it gives. Besides H is very flammable and unstable, Hindenburg comes to mind.
All these alternative sources only address electricity generation. The answer there has got to be nuclear. Clean, efficient, and safe. Reactors make their own fuel so it is the ultimate renewable fuel.
As far as transport, nothing has more energy per molecule than gasoline. That is why we use it. We have soooo much oil that we aren't allowed to get because of politics. If I were king, I could lower the price of crude with one announcement. We are drilling in AK and the Gulf. Poof! Markets react to new supply and price goes down. But alas, I am not king.... :-)
10-26-2007, 09:25 PM
#77
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Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 80
satchip--You must be an oil man, because that's the same spin they use in the media. With Exxon alone making +10 billion a quarter, they wield a powerful lobby to thwart any kind of research into alternative energy. They're also responsilbe for most of our current energy policy. If you do some open-minded research you'd see there are many possiblities out there. We just need our government to invest in research and infastructure to support it. It's a shame many of our powerful politicians will put our environment, economy, and national security at risk to support big oil's agenda. Here is a bit more info in addition to your last post.
http://www.industryweek.com/ReadArti...ArticleID=1219
"Government policies (tax structure and subsidies) and issues such as the Kyoto treaty are encouraging fossil fuel alternatives. For example, the European Union's goals by 2010 include having 22% of its electrical power come from renewable sources. Zwolinski thinks similar gains are possible in the U.S. with the right incentives and technology gains. "There's enough wind power potential from North Dakota to Texas to feed the entire U.S." (Some research suggest S.D. alone with the lastest technology)
Zwolinski says the new turbine will become commercially available in 2004. His current line-up has wind generators rated at 750 and 900 kilowatts and 1.5 megawatts. A single 1.5-megawatt wind turbine can supply about 400 American households, says the American Wind Energy Association." (With the new 3.6 MW turbines, that's over twice as much)
And a little about switchgrass: http://www.physorg.com/news84469375.html
“Switchgrass is a native plant of the tall grass prairies. It grows 12 feet tall in one season and produces 10 tons of plant material an acre, more biomass per year than most other plants,” said Albert Kausch, a University of Rhode Island plant geneticist on the cutting edge of switchgrass research. “I’m confident my lab can make it produce 20 tons an acre using the tools and personnel we have right now.” And because switchgrass is a perennial plant, it doesn’t require replanting year after year." (Meaning much less expense, like cutting hay)
"Despite having studied corn for many years, Kausch believes it may not be best choice for ethanol production. “Some critics argue that there is not enough good quality arable land available to grow the amount of corn required for biofuels, and all that we produce now is used for food instead of fuel,” he said. “Corn is also very expensive to grow compared to switchgrass.”
Kausch has launched Project Golden Switchgrass at the University of Rhode Island, which he hopes will develop “the variety of enhanced switchgrass that everyone needs.” He said that native switchgrass grown commercially today could produce ethanol for approximately $2.70 per gallon, but by genetically improving a number of plant traits he believes the production price could get as low as $1 per gallon."
-Just for your info, it's not the price of corn driving food prices up, it's the price of gas to transport it!
http://www.industryweek.com/ReadArti...ArticleID=1219
"Government policies (tax structure and subsidies) and issues such as the Kyoto treaty are encouraging fossil fuel alternatives. For example, the European Union's goals by 2010 include having 22% of its electrical power come from renewable sources. Zwolinski thinks similar gains are possible in the U.S. with the right incentives and technology gains. "There's enough wind power potential from North Dakota to Texas to feed the entire U.S." (Some research suggest S.D. alone with the lastest technology)
Zwolinski says the new turbine will become commercially available in 2004. His current line-up has wind generators rated at 750 and 900 kilowatts and 1.5 megawatts. A single 1.5-megawatt wind turbine can supply about 400 American households, says the American Wind Energy Association." (With the new 3.6 MW turbines, that's over twice as much)
And a little about switchgrass: http://www.physorg.com/news84469375.html
“Switchgrass is a native plant of the tall grass prairies. It grows 12 feet tall in one season and produces 10 tons of plant material an acre, more biomass per year than most other plants,” said Albert Kausch, a University of Rhode Island plant geneticist on the cutting edge of switchgrass research. “I’m confident my lab can make it produce 20 tons an acre using the tools and personnel we have right now.” And because switchgrass is a perennial plant, it doesn’t require replanting year after year." (Meaning much less expense, like cutting hay)
"Despite having studied corn for many years, Kausch believes it may not be best choice for ethanol production. “Some critics argue that there is not enough good quality arable land available to grow the amount of corn required for biofuels, and all that we produce now is used for food instead of fuel,” he said. “Corn is also very expensive to grow compared to switchgrass.”
Kausch has launched Project Golden Switchgrass at the University of Rhode Island, which he hopes will develop “the variety of enhanced switchgrass that everyone needs.” He said that native switchgrass grown commercially today could produce ethanol for approximately $2.70 per gallon, but by genetically improving a number of plant traits he believes the production price could get as low as $1 per gallon."
-Just for your info, it's not the price of corn driving food prices up, it's the price of gas to transport it!
10-26-2007, 10:15 PM
#78
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Why does everyone say that "the government" should do the research?
How about some private firms do some research and come up with the next big way to make a sh*t-ton of cash with an alternative energy source? That's how we do it in a capitalist republic.
How about some private firms do some research and come up with the next big way to make a sh*t-ton of cash with an alternative energy source? That's how we do it in a capitalist republic.
10-26-2007, 11:29 PM
#79
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I agree Hacker..... and further I would say yes Exxon has an agenda, its to find, refine, and buy crude oil into petroleum products and make MONEY. IF their agenda is not to invest in alternative energies ( BP actually has invested billions along these lines ) then it will bite them down the road. More power to them in making money, and if their long term policy isnt sound, they will pay the price on that end as well. GOVERNMENT already makes more per gallon of refined gasoline in taxes than a company like EXXON or SHELL ever will.
10-27-2007, 05:51 AM
#80
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Sparky, nice try. I am not an oil man I am a pilot, consumer, and 20+ year Air Force vet. My info came from here, http://www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us/index.htm, hardly an industry site. Alternative fuel is just not there yet. There is plenty of oil that we can get cleanly and economically and immediately reduce the market price.
You have thrown out a lot of statements without much supporting documentation. Let me politely refute some of them.
Corn is going up because we are burning it! 3 year chart for corn prices. Ask someone south of the border how much corn prices have risen. It affects everything they eat.
We don't use switch grass or sugar for ethanol production because of government intervention. IE high tariffs on sugar based ethanol from Brazil and billions in corn subsidies to Iowa and the other corn producing states. Why, to buy votes. Besides Ethanol is a terribly inefficient fuel. E85 engines get much less mpg. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm
click on the 5.3L gas engine and the 5.3L E85 engine. That is about a 25% decrease in fuel economy.
The fact that you mentioned Kyoto disqualifies much of your arguments. Kyoto was an anti American, anti Capitalist attempt to destroy our economy. Even the Democrats won't ratify it.
As for Mr Kausch, his agenda is clearly apparent in the article.
Ethanol is a form of alcohol that burns much more cleanly than gasoline, so it results in far lower emissions when used to power automobiles and other vehicles. Since a majority of the carbon dioxide emissions that cause global warming come from transportation sources, Kausch believes that switching from gasoline to 100 percent ethanol is an important step toward halting climate change. “It won’t entirely solve the problem, but it sure will help,” he said. “And the reduced CO2 that comes from your tailpipe is then absorbed by the plants that are then turned into ethanol again, so it becomes a natural cycle.”
The far more CO2 is produced naturally, according to the IPCC, than by man made emissions. OBTW, CO2 is not a pollutant. The whole climate change racket is just that. It is anti capitalism and anti human, pure and simple.
And your wind power argument. Once again do the math. 47000 acres to produce 750 MW. Look at this chart. The total US demand per year exceeds 750,000 MW. That is 47 million acres of wind farms.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat3p1.html
That also assumes that the wind never stops blowing nor changes direction. I fly over this wind farm every day and about half of the turbines are turning at any one time. (purely unscientific observation)
Face it Sparky, alternative fuels are a pipe dream right now. Maybe in a couple of hundred years when we think we might really run out of oil the market will drive a switch. That is the key though. The market is infinitely smarter than any government bureaucrat. Let it work.
You have thrown out a lot of statements without much supporting documentation. Let me politely refute some of them.
Corn is going up because we are burning it! 3 year chart for corn prices. Ask someone south of the border how much corn prices have risen. It affects everything they eat.
We don't use switch grass or sugar for ethanol production because of government intervention. IE high tariffs on sugar based ethanol from Brazil and billions in corn subsidies to Iowa and the other corn producing states. Why, to buy votes. Besides Ethanol is a terribly inefficient fuel. E85 engines get much less mpg. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm
click on the 5.3L gas engine and the 5.3L E85 engine. That is about a 25% decrease in fuel economy.
The fact that you mentioned Kyoto disqualifies much of your arguments. Kyoto was an anti American, anti Capitalist attempt to destroy our economy. Even the Democrats won't ratify it.
As for Mr Kausch, his agenda is clearly apparent in the article.
Ethanol is a form of alcohol that burns much more cleanly than gasoline, so it results in far lower emissions when used to power automobiles and other vehicles. Since a majority of the carbon dioxide emissions that cause global warming come from transportation sources, Kausch believes that switching from gasoline to 100 percent ethanol is an important step toward halting climate change. “It won’t entirely solve the problem, but it sure will help,” he said. “And the reduced CO2 that comes from your tailpipe is then absorbed by the plants that are then turned into ethanol again, so it becomes a natural cycle.”
The far more CO2 is produced naturally, according to the IPCC, than by man made emissions. OBTW, CO2 is not a pollutant. The whole climate change racket is just that. It is anti capitalism and anti human, pure and simple.
And your wind power argument. Once again do the math. 47000 acres to produce 750 MW. Look at this chart. The total US demand per year exceeds 750,000 MW. That is 47 million acres of wind farms.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat3p1.html
That also assumes that the wind never stops blowing nor changes direction. I fly over this wind farm every day and about half of the turbines are turning at any one time. (purely unscientific observation)
Face it Sparky, alternative fuels are a pipe dream right now. Maybe in a couple of hundred years when we think we might really run out of oil the market will drive a switch. That is the key though. The market is infinitely smarter than any government bureaucrat. Let it work.
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