If you had merger with someone in 1980, should your 14 year FE's have been placed behind every FO at the merging carrier. Should someone else have been gifted the sacrifice of those guys who sat sideways for 14 years and enjoyed the benefit of the Captain positions or wide body and international flying ahead of them. Hell, no and you would have been screaming bloody murder. >>>>

Don't see the comparison. Those theoretical FE's had jobs. They were not furloughed. No one was "gifted" anything. Did you know that in addition to the top 517 slots going to AAA, the seniority was awarded as follows....757 captains 167/90 AAA/AWA, 320/737 captains 873/767 AAA/AWA, 757 FO 176/87 AAA/AWA, 320/737 FO 840/718, furloughees went to the bottom. Hardly a sweep for the AWA guys, eh?

 

The protections you quote are for 5 years and cease if the retirement age is raised to 65. The top 517 were hired before any of the AWA pilots and got exactly what their longevity gave them. There was no gift there.

You are the one that stated, its only what you bring. An FE, brings and FE slot and shouldn't go ahead of a single FO, no matter how long he has been around. You won't admit, but that is where your logic takes you. Likewise if UAL were to merger with Airtran tomorrow, every 73 Captain Airtran has should be slotted senior to any 737 or A320 FO at UAL, even if they have only been there 4 years vs 8 or 10 or more at UAL. If the Airtran pilot in the future then holds a wide body position first and through the benefit of likely being younger forever blocks the UAL pilot from, so be it, right? That is what you are advocating whether you want to admit it or not. I hope we get a good look at it. If I were a pilot working in younger pilot group, I wouldn't negotiate one iota in a merger with the other pilot group, because the worse case scenario is you end up with DOH, which is fair.

Fortuantely I have a personal business, so if this entire profession goes down in flames it won't hurt my feelings. I'll be the first to tell every whiner I fly with, that when principles and unionism loose out, this is what you get and so take a good look in the mirror. The word scab will cease to exist in my vocabulary because in this great capitalistic environment amongst pilots that ALPA just seem to love, it is only about what you can get, when you can get just like all the other non-union shclubs out their working in the professional world. ALPA is hypocrisy at it's best, and it will reap what it sows.

 

we have to agree to disagree. "DOH, which is fair" is something I do not agree with when it comes to mergers. You obviously do. ALPA merger policy is not based on it, and thus the agreement does not reflect it.

 

Great post. All you "know-it-alls" should read it again.

The award was flawed because it did not take the retirement of the East pilots in to account. In five years, West pilots will dominate the list. A twenty year East pilot will be junior to a relative new hire from the West. That's just not right.

 

ALPA got what they deserve. I think it's only the tip of the iceberg. They had their opportunity to make a difference, but failed due to poor leadership! If they were more concerned about the state of our careers instead of membership dues being top priority, they could have been made a difference and been an organization with some integrity.

 

AirWhisky31:

Where would your cousin be if AWA did not merge with US Airways??????

Would he still be a junior FO, if US Airways was still in business???

The answer is more than likely YES>>>

US Airways was able to recall all their furloughess due to some international expansion, retirements and E190 A/C purchases. NOT ALL RETIREMENTS ON THE EAST SIDE COME FROM THE CAPTAIN SEATS. Thus the likely hood that your cousin would be a captain now at US Airways is highly unlikely.

The East crews received all the jobs on the 757 aircraft that were purchased after the merger, the West received nothing but a future guarantee. The East crews received all E190 captain and fo slots, the West received a promise in the future. The East, by keeping the seniority lists separate, has continued to upgrade their FO's, which has benefited them again. These pilots can not be downgraded once the list is presented to the company.

How far down the list due you think the West guys should allow the East to protect their pilots? (NOBODY CAN ANSWER THIS QUESTION, AND I MEAN NOBODY..... PROTECT A 1999 NEW HIRE AT USAIRWAYS THEN SPENT 2 YEARS ON PROPERTY.) A portion of the pilots hired on the East in 87 and 88, I know some of them, spent more time on furlough from US Airways, then actively flying. Some of these pilots allowed themselves to be furloughed 3 times from the same carrier and are coming back for more. The Nicolau award did not consider furlough time. The East crews did not want to go down this path, as they knew that if furlough time was considered, a portion of their pilots would have less time then an AWA junior pilot. So has the East benefited from the award, of course. Did AWA benefit from the award of course.

 

We'll let ya know as soon as litigation against them is over.

Good Post MaxEPR.

FF
ex-T-Way

 

For all those who say that AWA was losing money in the last 8 quarters - please take the time to read the 7ks and SEC documents. AWA Holdings lost money on the West side because the West was paying for all the merger expenses. It is accounting 101, people. But hey, the East has never let the facts get in the way of rhetoric.

If the USAPA drive does go through, which I doubt, there will be 1900 non duespaying members out West. Plus a DFR lawsuit which ALPA will pay for. I hope you guys have big pockets back East because you are going to be paying big assesments. And, by the way, you will have to pay those assesments out of LOA 93 pay because there will be no joint contract with USAPA.

The East pilots are losing 40,000 dollars per year in income because they won't accept binding arbitration and won't negotiate a joint contract. That 40k is just to bring them up to our rates. We want to raise the bar higher. The East just wants to hang on and drag us all down.

 

I've been told it is a closed shop which means they will be required to pay a fee equal to dues or be fired. Anyone confirm?

 

Here is an answer. The East was asking for length of service. not DOH for those "new Hires" with fences and furlough protection for the equivalent 2 year west pilots
Not only that, it wasnt 1for 1 on length of service either. a two year guy on the East would end up with less than 1 for purposes of their proposal.
Not that any of that matters now