Why the Heart Burn with USAPA....
04-19-2008, 09:27 PM
#1
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Why the Heart Burn with USAPA....
Hear is why I have alot of Heartburn with USAPA and for that matter US Airways East.
Its called entitlement......plan and simple.
In 2000 United Airlines CEO Goodwin made an agreement with Wolf at US Airways to BUY US Airways for $60 a share. (Will not go into the fact that is was premium on the stock beyond belief, or how crazy it was.)
Within a 3 or 4 month period, you start hearing how US Airways pilots are J/S United equipment, specifically the 777 and 747 and telling the pilots at UAL that they are going to take their captains seats. Now a captain on a widebody hates it when you tell them they are going to loose their seats. So that captains start denying J/S to US Airways pilots.
Now how did they pilots at US Airways think they were going to get those captains seats. They did not have the aircraft on property, had none on order.
Now current day, US Airways is merged with AWA. Now US Airways wants all the captain positions for the next 20 years or so. Don't know how long they want fences, cause not one pilot on the East can answer a simple question of how long they would like the fences. Or how far down the list do you want to protect. (Its crazy to think you can protect a 1989-90 new hire who spent most of the 90's on furlough, let alone a 1998 guy.)
Plus they want all 3400 or so pilots protected from ever being furlouged, by putting AWA guys below.
All this goes to entitlement. These pilots seem to think that everyone should give in to what they want with no questions asked. This is utterly crazy.
I have tried to be nice to these pilots, saying Hello when I am in PHL, CLT or any other base. I hate to say it, I am ignored, given the finger, or simply a dirty look. I tired to be professional and the bigger person. I must say I am tired.
Now they want me to support them, despite the way the approach and treat me. They want me to contribute and blindly follow and not question I am sure. Sorry.
But only time will tell if they can bring the whole US Airways pilot group together. But given this perception of entitlement, I highly doubt it.
Its called entitlement......plan and simple.
In 2000 United Airlines CEO Goodwin made an agreement with Wolf at US Airways to BUY US Airways for $60 a share. (Will not go into the fact that is was premium on the stock beyond belief, or how crazy it was.)
Within a 3 or 4 month period, you start hearing how US Airways pilots are J/S United equipment, specifically the 777 and 747 and telling the pilots at UAL that they are going to take their captains seats. Now a captain on a widebody hates it when you tell them they are going to loose their seats. So that captains start denying J/S to US Airways pilots.
Now how did they pilots at US Airways think they were going to get those captains seats. They did not have the aircraft on property, had none on order.
Now current day, US Airways is merged with AWA. Now US Airways wants all the captain positions for the next 20 years or so. Don't know how long they want fences, cause not one pilot on the East can answer a simple question of how long they would like the fences. Or how far down the list do you want to protect. (Its crazy to think you can protect a 1989-90 new hire who spent most of the 90's on furlough, let alone a 1998 guy.)
Plus they want all 3400 or so pilots protected from ever being furlouged, by putting AWA guys below.
All this goes to entitlement. These pilots seem to think that everyone should give in to what they want with no questions asked. This is utterly crazy.
I have tried to be nice to these pilots, saying Hello when I am in PHL, CLT or any other base. I hate to say it, I am ignored, given the finger, or simply a dirty look. I tired to be professional and the bigger person. I must say I am tired.
Now they want me to support them, despite the way the approach and treat me. They want me to contribute and blindly follow and not question I am sure. Sorry.
But only time will tell if they can bring the whole US Airways pilot group together. But given this perception of entitlement, I highly doubt it.
04-19-2008, 10:05 PM
#2
La Familia Delta
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B-717 FO / C-17 AC
Posts: 2,467
this is a tough situation for both sides and i feel bad for all parties involved. i hope to hear some kind of good news from you guys in the future. ill even consider no news to be good news
04-19-2008, 10:28 PM
#3
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
Originally Posted by alwaysflying
But only time will tell if they can bring the whole US Airways pilot group together. But given this perception of entitlement, I highly doubt it.
Looks like NWA and DAL going down the same road. ALPA sure is not taking a forceful leadership role in this meltdown. For all our sakes, I wish you all the best. But you paint a grim picture of future unity, so I'll take your word, "They" won't pull it off, But we "all" could.
04-20-2008, 12:07 AM
#4
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Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: recalled until the next round of right sizing to optimise synergies
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Originally Posted by alwaysflying
Hear is why I have alot of Heartburn with USAPA and for that matter US Airways East.
Its called entitlement......plan and simple.
In 2000 United Airlines CEO Goodwin made an agreement with Wolf at US Airways to BUY US Airways for $60 a share. (Will not go into the fact that is was premium on the stock beyond belief, or how crazy it was.)
Within a 3 or 4 month period, you start hearing how US Airways pilots are J/S United equipment, specifically the 777 and 747 and telling the pilots at UAL that they are going to take their captains seats. Now a captain on a widebody hates it when you tell them they are going to loose their seats. So that captains start denying J/S to US Airways pilots.
Now how did they pilots at US Airways think they were going to get those captains seats. They did not have the aircraft on property, had none on order.
That story sounds familiar, who recently wanted widebody Captain seat that they did not have prior to a merger? Hmm[/B]
Now current day, US Airways is merged with AWA. Now US Airways wants all the captain positions for the next 20 years or so. Don't know how long they want fences, cause not one pilot on the East can answer a simple question of how long they would like the fences. Or how far down the list do you want to protect. (Its crazy to think you can protect a 1989-90 new hire who spent most of the 90's on furlough, let alone a 1998 guy.)
The fences according to USAPA can and should be set by the west
Plus they want all 3400 or so pilots protected from ever being furlouged, by putting AWA guys below.
Sorry just not true DOH is not a staple, especially with the no bump or flush in addition to fences
I have tried to be nice to these pilots, saying Hello when I am in PHL, CLT or any other base. I hate to say it, I am ignored, given the finger, or simply a dirty look. I tired to be professional and the bigger person. I must say I am tired.
I dont buy it, however if you are in fact getting the finger just for the heck of it, please report them to pro standards. I even said hello to a west guy with a sticker calling me a scab, and let me tell you, to me that is one heck of an insult.
Now they want me to support them, despite the way the approach and treat me. They want me to contribute and blindly follow and not question I am sure. Sorry.
Who is asking you not to question?
But only time will tell if they can bring the whole US Airways pilot group together. But given this perception of entitlement, I highly doubt it.
Its called entitlement......plan and simple.
In 2000 United Airlines CEO Goodwin made an agreement with Wolf at US Airways to BUY US Airways for $60 a share. (Will not go into the fact that is was premium on the stock beyond belief, or how crazy it was.)
Within a 3 or 4 month period, you start hearing how US Airways pilots are J/S United equipment, specifically the 777 and 747 and telling the pilots at UAL that they are going to take their captains seats. Now a captain on a widebody hates it when you tell them they are going to loose their seats. So that captains start denying J/S to US Airways pilots.
Now how did they pilots at US Airways think they were going to get those captains seats. They did not have the aircraft on property, had none on order.
That story sounds familiar, who recently wanted widebody Captain seat that they did not have prior to a merger? Hmm[/B]
Now current day, US Airways is merged with AWA. Now US Airways wants all the captain positions for the next 20 years or so. Don't know how long they want fences, cause not one pilot on the East can answer a simple question of how long they would like the fences. Or how far down the list do you want to protect. (Its crazy to think you can protect a 1989-90 new hire who spent most of the 90's on furlough, let alone a 1998 guy.)
The fences according to USAPA can and should be set by the west
Plus they want all 3400 or so pilots protected from ever being furlouged, by putting AWA guys below.
Sorry just not true DOH is not a staple, especially with the no bump or flush in addition to fences
I have tried to be nice to these pilots, saying Hello when I am in PHL, CLT or any other base. I hate to say it, I am ignored, given the finger, or simply a dirty look. I tired to be professional and the bigger person. I must say I am tired.
I dont buy it, however if you are in fact getting the finger just for the heck of it, please report them to pro standards. I even said hello to a west guy with a sticker calling me a scab, and let me tell you, to me that is one heck of an insult.
Now they want me to support them, despite the way the approach and treat me. They want me to contribute and blindly follow and not question I am sure. Sorry.
Who is asking you not to question?
But only time will tell if they can bring the whole US Airways pilot group together. But given this perception of entitlement, I highly doubt it.
04-20-2008, 03:57 PM
#6
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,542
I just cannot understand why the East guys are mad at the West guys, and vice versa. Seriously. Channel your anger towards who you should be mad at.
The west guys wanted some sort of relative seniority. The east guys came back with DOH, and nothing else! The arbitrator made a decision that screwed the junior east guys. I don't think anyone disputes that the junior east guys go screwed. But it is not the west's fault. Blame the arbitrator, and blame whoever was negotiating for the US Air east pilots. They knew they had no chance of getting DOH, but since that was all they offered, it went to binding arbitration, and then the arbitrator screwed the junior east guys.
Why would a west guy be mad at an east guy? Why would an east guy be mad at a west guy? The west pilots did not make the arbitration ruling. And my personal favorite, why the heck are the east guys mad at ALPA???
If the east pilots want to change this industry, they should not have voted out the world's most powerful pilots union.
It seems to me that the east guys are channeling their anger at the wrong people (the west and ALPA). This whole thing is stupid if you ask me. Ya, the junior east guys got screwed, but stop acting like children and grow up. If you would focus all this anger at management, maybe you won't have an industry worst contract for a legacy carrier.
The west guys wanted some sort of relative seniority. The east guys came back with DOH, and nothing else! The arbitrator made a decision that screwed the junior east guys. I don't think anyone disputes that the junior east guys go screwed. But it is not the west's fault. Blame the arbitrator, and blame whoever was negotiating for the US Air east pilots. They knew they had no chance of getting DOH, but since that was all they offered, it went to binding arbitration, and then the arbitrator screwed the junior east guys.
Why would a west guy be mad at an east guy? Why would an east guy be mad at a west guy? The west pilots did not make the arbitration ruling. And my personal favorite, why the heck are the east guys mad at ALPA???
If the east pilots want to change this industry, they should not have voted out the world's most powerful pilots union.
It seems to me that the east guys are channeling their anger at the wrong people (the west and ALPA). This whole thing is stupid if you ask me. Ya, the junior east guys got screwed, but stop acting like children and grow up. If you would focus all this anger at management, maybe you won't have an industry worst contract for a legacy carrier.
04-20-2008, 04:04 PM
#7
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Position: Maddog FO
Posts: 651
Relative Seniority. What is wrong with that? If you are in the 55th percentile at east (or west), then you should be in the 55th percentile in the merged carrier. What is wrong with that?
I would really like to see a national ALPA list, therefore date of hire would/should prevail.
I would really like to see a national ALPA list, therefore date of hire would/should prevail.
04-20-2008, 04:14 PM
#8
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None of the East guys I run into are mad at the West. They are POed at Nic, the are furious with ALPA but not the West pilots.
They do not like being called names however, so yes when somebody calls them some name, they will fire back.
But they are NOT mad at the West. I wish I could say the same for the West guys towards the East, but that unfortunately is not the case.
They do not like being called names however, so yes when somebody calls them some name, they will fire back.
But they are NOT mad at the West. I wish I could say the same for the West guys towards the East, but that unfortunately is not the case.
04-20-2008, 05:30 PM
#9
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Alwaysflying makes some good points.
I'm not an attorney and don't know how bound or unbound the arbitrator's ruling is going forward.
As an outsider, I do have to mention how admirable I think the senior East pilots are for sticking up for the junior Easters (kicking ALPA off the property in the process).
It's easy for me as an outsider to suggest that y'all get along by the East and West senior pilots joining together in * sticking up for both East and West juniors.
Please keep in mind, the West new hire in 2003, applied, interviewed, flew the sim and was accepted by the 2nd most sucessful LCC in our country. That applicant did not interview and was not hired by the legacy carrier.
They arrived on the property with zero expectations of the ups and downs associated with the East legacy.
* - It's a fine line to skate, but if I was in your hockey boots, I'd keep that in mind...
I'm not an attorney and don't know how bound or unbound the arbitrator's ruling is going forward.
As an outsider, I do have to mention how admirable I think the senior East pilots are for sticking up for the junior Easters (kicking ALPA off the property in the process).
It's easy for me as an outsider to suggest that y'all get along by the East and West senior pilots joining together in * sticking up for both East and West juniors.
Please keep in mind, the West new hire in 2003, applied, interviewed, flew the sim and was accepted by the 2nd most sucessful LCC in our country. That applicant did not interview and was not hired by the legacy carrier.
They arrived on the property with zero expectations of the ups and downs associated with the East legacy.
* - It's a fine line to skate, but if I was in your hockey boots, I'd keep that in mind...
04-20-2008, 06:39 PM
#10
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: B777 Capt
Posts: 844
Originally Posted by SmoothOnTop
Please keep in mind, the West new hire in 2003, applied, interviewed, flew the sim and was accepted by the 2nd most sucessful LCC in our country. That applicant did not interview and was not hired by the legacy carrier.
They arrived on the property with zero expectations of the ups and downs associated with the East legacy.
* - It's a fine line to skate, but if I was in your hockey boots, I'd keep that in mind...
They arrived on the property with zero expectations of the ups and downs associated with the East legacy.
* - It's a fine line to skate, but if I was in your hockey boots, I'd keep that in mind...
The west pilot did not interview with the carrier that was in BK, that had no airplanes on order, had pilots on furlough and was very very near liquidation.
What were the expectations for the east pilots based on what was occurring at the carrier at the time of merge? Pretty bleak if you read the finances and the fact that US was in its second BK since 9/11.
Personally I don't care what union they are associated with. We all know ALPA national has had its head up it behind for quite sometime. But to change unions just to screw the west pilots is absurd. The east agreed to arbitration, did not like the results and decided to burn the house down to get what they want. Childish and sad to see such greed by the east driving the spike.
What happens to the US pilot group in the event of a merger? What are the chances another carrier gives the US pilots the AA/TWA treatment and staples them? Might have wanted that ALPA to ALPA merger instead of ALPA to USAPA in the long run.
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