Long Term pilot career outlook...?
06-07-2008, 12:03 PM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Leftof longitudinal
Posts: 1,899
Originally Posted by Wasatch Phantom
I just discovered this thread and have found it very interesting. Rotorhead's post was spot-on.
This profession is not what it was even five years ago. So some obvious questions are: Will it come back? If so, how long until it does?
From my viewpoint, I don't think it will ever be as good as it was, and though I think it will get a bit better, I don't think that will be very soon.
Though I sincerely enjoy flying, if I had my life to live over again I would not pursue a career in aviation. For reference, I'm 50, spent 8 1/2 years in the USAF and the last 15+ at Delta.
What attracted many of us to this profession is the lifestyle; income, security, days off, travel benefits, etc, etc. Every single category in that list has taken a major hit. What's scary is that many of today's "best and brightest" young people will look elsewhere for a career.
A few years ago I was in a hotel van and overheard a conversation between an Airtran captain and a United F/A. The Airtran captain told her that he would be going to his tenth High School reunion in a few months, and his classmates would be amazed that here he was an airline captain, and he had been voted "Most likely to work in a gas station".
I was shocked. So that's the caliber of individual that this industry (or at least Airtran) now attracts.
When I interviewed at American I was pretty cocky. I thought "Gee, you're a smart guy in great health with excellent flying skills. They'll hire you in a second." Well, as I met the other guys interviewing, I wasn't so confident. One guy was from the 89th Military Airlift Wing and flew very high level dignitaries, another was a USAF Test Pilot, another was a Blue Angel. All of a sudden I'm average at best.
I would be very surprised indeed if any American, Delta, Northwest or Southwest pilot was voted "Most likely to work in a gas station".
This profession is not what it was even five years ago. So some obvious questions are: Will it come back? If so, how long until it does?
From my viewpoint, I don't think it will ever be as good as it was, and though I think it will get a bit better, I don't think that will be very soon.
Though I sincerely enjoy flying, if I had my life to live over again I would not pursue a career in aviation. For reference, I'm 50, spent 8 1/2 years in the USAF and the last 15+ at Delta.
What attracted many of us to this profession is the lifestyle; income, security, days off, travel benefits, etc, etc. Every single category in that list has taken a major hit. What's scary is that many of today's "best and brightest" young people will look elsewhere for a career.
A few years ago I was in a hotel van and overheard a conversation between an Airtran captain and a United F/A. The Airtran captain told her that he would be going to his tenth High School reunion in a few months, and his classmates would be amazed that here he was an airline captain, and he had been voted "Most likely to work in a gas station".
I was shocked. So that's the caliber of individual that this industry (or at least Airtran) now attracts.
When I interviewed at American I was pretty cocky. I thought "Gee, you're a smart guy in great health with excellent flying skills. They'll hire you in a second." Well, as I met the other guys interviewing, I wasn't so confident. One guy was from the 89th Military Airlift Wing and flew very high level dignitaries, another was a USAF Test Pilot, another was a Blue Angel. All of a sudden I'm average at best.
I would be very surprised indeed if any American, Delta, Northwest or Southwest pilot was voted "Most likely to work in a gas station".
06-07-2008, 12:13 PM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 188
I agree with you 100% Zapata.
Pay commensurate with expirience and expertise.
The long term outlook for this career with the present work agreements is poor at best.
Management can shut down and airline or furlough 12,000 hour pilots and if these pilots want to continue to be airline pilots they must start all over again elsewhere for about 30K per year pulling gear for some jerk who may be seriously less qualified and skilled.
What a joke.
This is largely ALPA's fault.
Plumbers,electricians and longshoremen have a much better deal and far better unions.
They have union medical insurance,union retirement and most important can move their skills from company to company at like pay rates in the same position.
Pay commensurate with expirience and expertise.
The long term outlook for this career with the present work agreements is poor at best.
Management can shut down and airline or furlough 12,000 hour pilots and if these pilots want to continue to be airline pilots they must start all over again elsewhere for about 30K per year pulling gear for some jerk who may be seriously less qualified and skilled.
What a joke.
This is largely ALPA's fault.
Plumbers,electricians and longshoremen have a much better deal and far better unions.
They have union medical insurance,union retirement and most important can move their skills from company to company at like pay rates in the same position.
06-07-2008, 12:24 PM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"the opposites occurred. The "successful" predictions didn't and the gas station predictions produced quite the opposite"
I know two guys who faired low in the high school status structure of the time. One is an Alaska Capt and the other a UPS Capt years later.
I know two guys who faired low in the high school status structure of the time. One is an Alaska Capt and the other a UPS Capt years later.
06-07-2008, 03:35 PM
#66
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Personal Perspective
Originally Posted by flyingback
SH, I have thought some of your sober points were worth hearing, but less and less so with time. Many people, such as myself, enjoy aviation and are committed enough to find those opportunities which are still very much worthwhile.
Keep in mind I'm starting over from all but the bottom and with plenty of debt and battle scars ... outside of aviation I've worked daily with people who make 2/3 what's I make now working 3 times as hard. Without chasing more lucrative opportunities (which are realistic for me), I will double that in a couple years. And I'm year 1 at my company. Which is growing. And improving QOL.
Everything takes work. Are we all going to cry because along with the rest of the present world, aviation isn't as much of a free ride as we want it to be?
Keep in mind I'm starting over from all but the bottom and with plenty of debt and battle scars ... outside of aviation I've worked daily with people who make 2/3 what's I make now working 3 times as hard. Without chasing more lucrative opportunities (which are realistic for me), I will double that in a couple years. And I'm year 1 at my company. Which is growing. And improving QOL.
Everything takes work. Are we all going to cry because along with the rest of the present world, aviation isn't as much of a free ride as we want it to be?
I do not know your situation, however it sounds great. If you are comparing gas station attendants to regional airline pilots then I would have to agree with you.
All I can say is that a few years ago UAL was the king of the mountain. Pilots were fist fighting in the street for a chance to interview. You may have a good situation now (and I hope it always will be for you) but, you shouldn't walk up to a guy at Aloha right now and tell him that he is a cry baby and that perhaps he should try harder. Not everyone has or will have a good situation. No amount of trying will salvage the careers lost at Aloha or ATA.
Continually starting over is not much of an answer either.
No one is safe anymore.
Skyhigh
06-07-2008, 03:50 PM
#67
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Chicken Little
Plumbers, electricians and longshoremen have a better deal because they have skills that are actually in demand. It isn't easy to find an electrical apprentice who will show up ready to work everyday sober and prepared. Guys who are even a little bit smart are valued and can go a long way.
The biggest problem with re-regulation and a national seniority list is that the only ones who would benefit from it would be the pilots. Consumers and management only stand to loose. Pilots tend to be dedicated smart and hard working employees who are eager to jump at any offer to fly a plane. As such there is little value to the employer. Given the current oil crisis it seem likely that there will be even more pilots to choose from.
I wish things were different however this is the situation we are faced with.
Maybe the sky is falling?
Skyhigh
The biggest problem with re-regulation and a national seniority list is that the only ones who would benefit from it would be the pilots. Consumers and management only stand to loose. Pilots tend to be dedicated smart and hard working employees who are eager to jump at any offer to fly a plane. As such there is little value to the employer. Given the current oil crisis it seem likely that there will be even more pilots to choose from.
I wish things were different however this is the situation we are faced with.
Maybe the sky is falling?
Skyhigh
06-07-2008, 05:46 PM
#68
Retired
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: whale wrangler
Posts: 3,527
Originally Posted by Aviatormar
So for a guy who is 23 and is working at a regional (AWAC), should I just get out now, or stick around for another 5 to 7 years and see what happens? What seems to be the general consensus?
06-08-2008, 01:00 PM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: retired
Posts: 645
Originally Posted by NuGuy
Heyas,
If you're a young guy who's logging some 121 turbine PIC time, I would run it up to 1500-2000 hours, and then take a break, and consider going back to school.
Med school is tough to get in, but LOTS of health care jobs are out there don't require the time/$$$, such as Physician's Assistant. MANY, MANY of them are ideal for part time work.
Law school is another option.
Personally, I went back to grad school in Chemistry. If you're a US citizen and go into ANY of the sciences or engineering disciplines, you're way is paid plus a stipend+health benefits. NOT a bad deal...
Nu
If you're a young guy who's logging some 121 turbine PIC time, I would run it up to 1500-2000 hours, and then take a break, and consider going back to school.
Med school is tough to get in, but LOTS of health care jobs are out there don't require the time/$$$, such as Physician's Assistant. MANY, MANY of them are ideal for part time work.
Law school is another option.
Personally, I went back to grad school in Chemistry. If you're a US citizen and go into ANY of the sciences or engineering disciplines, you're way is paid plus a stipend+health benefits. NOT a bad deal...
Nu
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