B757200ER

Agree 100%. But since 9-11, 80% of TWA's employees have suffered the brunt of furloughs at AA, while less than 16% of AA's have lost their jobs. Not fair, equitable or the AAmerican way.

aa73

Just curious, what furlough numbers would have made it "fair and equitable?" The other way around... 80% AA furloughed and 16% TWA? 50-50? Me, I don't know. But what I do know is that, when a large profitable (at the time) airline buys the assets of a much smaller airline close to the brink, it goes without saying that the employees of the larger, acquiring airline that were already on the property will enjoy much better job stability than those from the other smaller airline that is being acquired. Unfair to the smaller airline, definitely. But you can rest assured it will happen again.... even with the new mandate of "neutral arbitration." We've already seen it with AWA/US. It's just the old axiom, "He who has the most gold makes the rules."

I suspect the thing that ticks most of you TWA folks off is the fact that the acquisition came with that golden promise from Don Carty and AMR - NOT APA - about "fair and equitable." To that extent, I completely understand your frustration and agree 100% that it led you folks down the wrong path.

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TonyMontana

I have no sympathy for anything bad that happens to the pilots defending the profession/APA/operation lock and load/2 minute striker @ssclowns.

Do feel sorry for the TWA guys tho.

aa73

No worries, my leetle friend....sympathy is the last thing we need right now. We want everyone ****ed off at us, that's what riles us up and makes us fight even harder for the best contract ever. Bring it on!

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joel payne

Not sure what it is about AA pilots. They always have been[IMO] a little different. Seems like APA and management are always in some kind of confrontation. Yet they continue to function. Go figure !! When I started, back in the 70's, AA pilots were known by pilots from other airlines as "Sky Nazis". Almost like there were AA pilots and everybody else. Even know a retired AA pilot who is a nice guy, but can't start a sentence without "Back when I was a Chief Pilot at American---". Gets old after a while. Used to subscribe to the APA newsletter, but dropped it when all I read was negativity. Just my $.02.

B757200ER

Here were the furlough numbers, YOU decide:

AA Seniority List: 11,600 Pilots; 1100 furloughed (11%, most senior furloughee July '99 hire, FO)

TWA Seniority List: 2400 Pilots; 1900 furloughed (78% of list, most senior furloughee a June '88 CA)

Well? Still think it was shared equally and sacrificed fairly after 9-11?

Your second point about it happening again is false. The Bond-McCaskill bill was created, signed and passed into law because of AA/APA's greed and arrogance. It will NOT happen again.

The thing that 'ticks us off' most is APA, ALPA and AA entered into a secret agreement to subvert the integration process for their own ends. That is what ticks us off.

aa73

I understand what ticks you guys off, as I've already pointed out.

You still didn't answer my question regarding "fair" furlough numbers. You just listed a bunch of statistics.

Do you honestly think that AA pilots should have taken the brunt of the furloughs - when it was THEIR OWN AIRLINE that purchased TWA? Does that seem fair?

All I'm trying to say is this - once again - if a large profitable airline purchases a much smaller airline's assets that is close to the financial brink, it is most probable that the larger airline's employees will have more job stability/seniority than the smaller airline being purchased. Along those lines, therefore, it is not surprising that TWA employees suffered most of the furloughs - because they were bought out close to the financial brink by a much larger, more stable airline. You and your pilot group will forever deny that fact, but it will always hold true. This is the corporate world and how it works.

Regarding the Bond-McCaskill bill - all it does is prevents one union from calling all the shots, and submits the whole process to binding arbitration. But, as we've seen in the AWA/US deal, even binding arbitration leads to judgments mostly in favor of the most financially healthy airline. That is what I mean when I say it will probably happen again, even through binding arbitration - because an arbitrator will always take a "snapshot" of both airlines' financial health on the day of the merger/acquisition, and this must be taken into account when figuring job stability/seniority.

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B757200ER

aa73, financial health/stability has NEVER been used as a resource for deciding integrations, nor should it ever be. To say that the acquired airline should bear the brunt of the furloughs is reinforcing the title of this thread----AArogance. You deserve YOUR job, but I don't deserve mine. Your airline bought mine, but I'm an inferior pilot and should be laid-off instead of you, even though I was probably flying jets at a major before you had your private. You're merely displaying your sense of entitlement the more you try and make your point.

Bond/McCaskill was created because of AA/APA/ALPA and their subversive behavior and seperate agenda during the AA/TWA 'un'integration, simply put.

What is ironic in all this, especially in your description above, is that APA fought VEHEMENENTLY to deny TWA pilots arbitration of ANY kind, binding especially.

To answer your question: Furloughs should have been FAIRLY distributed, if 2890 were furloughed, half from AA, half from TWA. The percentages would STILL disadvantage the TWA pilots and give a windfall to AA's!

aa73

Started out with a long reply but I realized I was repeating myself for the umpteenth time and I'm not gonna change anyone's mind.

Let's just leave it at, "agree to disagree".

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TonyMontana

Yea, dont waste you're breath with these @holes, their really not worth it-any way, they'll soon be getting a dose of reality.

aa73, looks like you got your wish, saw on the news aa's performance numbers-DEAD LAST-keep up the good work.