Airfares
03-17-2006, 11:32 AM
#23
On Reserve
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Boston!
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by P-3Bubba
B-Man,
Im a BC 00' alumn who pursued aviation the OCS way. Drop me a PM.
Im a BC 00' alumn who pursued aviation the OCS way. Drop me a PM.
Hey,
Thanks for the message. For some reason I can't PM you...I'd love to talk to you though...could you PM me with an email address I could reach you at...I'd leave you my Boston College email, but I'd rather not leave it for all to see...
V/R,
Bman
03-17-2006, 06:02 PM
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Because of rising fuel costs, fares will go up. They already are.
But that doesn't obscure the fact that a hugely important component of cost -- employee compensation -- needs to continue to "right size." Pilots will always be the best-compensated non-management jobs at an airline, for obvious reasons. The real question is "what is an acceptable salary for pilots?"
I think the market is saying that a good, standard salary for an experienced captain flying a non-RJ jet is going to be about 100K. That's a six-figure income, guys and gals! You should be more than satisfied with that.
F/Os, junior captains, and RJ crews are obviously going to make significantly less, but they can continue to work toward that big-jet captain seat some day.
A salary scale along these lines will continue to give the public what it wants: cheap fares. Airlines that are able to offer cheap fares at a profit will survive; airlines that can't won't.
But that doesn't obscure the fact that a hugely important component of cost -- employee compensation -- needs to continue to "right size." Pilots will always be the best-compensated non-management jobs at an airline, for obvious reasons. The real question is "what is an acceptable salary for pilots?"
I think the market is saying that a good, standard salary for an experienced captain flying a non-RJ jet is going to be about 100K. That's a six-figure income, guys and gals! You should be more than satisfied with that.
F/Os, junior captains, and RJ crews are obviously going to make significantly less, but they can continue to work toward that big-jet captain seat some day.
A salary scale along these lines will continue to give the public what it wants: cheap fares. Airlines that are able to offer cheap fares at a profit will survive; airlines that can't won't.
03-18-2006, 01:58 PM
#26
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,292
Originally Posted by Poundstone
I think the market is saying that a good, standard salary for an experienced captain flying a non-RJ jet is going to be about 100K. That's a six-figure income, guys and gals! You should be more than satisfied with that.
1) Pilots have to retire at age 60 (even if they change it, I would guess maybe 50% would pass the medical after age 60). Assume the average professional (including pilots) starts their career at age 25. Assume non-pilots retire at age 65 (on average). In order to account for the lost five years, a pilot can be considered to be earning 87.5% of his actual annual salary. Now we're at $87, 500.
2) But the government is going to tax our pilot not at $87.5K, but at $100K. Let's take off an extra $4K for the higher tax bracket...$83.5K.
3) Now let's look at jobs that involve substantial time away from home and environmental hardship...these typically pay a very large premium compared to a similar job in benign conditions. Conservatively, this premium is probably at least 30% of the pay in question. Now we have $58,500 for a professional position that took about 15 years to acquire (you specified major not regional CA) and is directly responsible for the safety and well-being of 100-450 folks on each leg.
4) Don't forget the medical, lose that and your @ss is on the street. Even neurosurgeons don't have to pass a medical exam.
5) Most other professions pay a livable wage from the get-go. Regional airline FO's qualify for food stamps if they have a family, and you don't attain that whopping $58K/year until age 40 at the earliest. If you take a career average, that $100K airline captain is making less than a union bus driver.
Doesn't stack up well to other educated, licensed professionals at all. Health care (my buddy's wife is a radiation oncology technician, she makes $90K working part time, three blocks from home.), civil engineers, architects, merchant marine capatins, etc.
03-18-2006, 03:45 PM
#27
done, gone skiing
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Rocking chair
Posts: 1,601
and super size the fries while you're at it
Originally Posted by Poundstone
I think the market is saying that a good, standard salary for an experienced captain flying a non-RJ jet is going to be about 100K. That's a six-figure income, guys and gals! You should be more than satisfied with that.
F/Os, junior captains, and RJ crews are obviously going to make significantly less, but they can continue to work toward that big-jet captain seat some day.
A salary scale along these lines will continue to give the public what it wants: cheap fares. Airlines that are able to offer cheap fares at a profit will survive; airlines that can't won't.
F/Os, junior captains, and RJ crews are obviously going to make significantly less, but they can continue to work toward that big-jet captain seat some day.
A salary scale along these lines will continue to give the public what it wants: cheap fares. Airlines that are able to offer cheap fares at a profit will survive; airlines that can't won't.
03-18-2006, 08:14 PM
#29
On Reserve
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: CFI
Posts: 24
I think the problem is the general public, or ignorant people like poundstone, don't realize what you have to go through to become a airline pilot. I have some buddies who are seniors in college getting degrees in construction managment already have contracts for 50k a year with company truck.
I's a college graduate , flying professional if you will, and to make ends meet I drive tractors in the summer and feed cows in the winter. If I figure what I really get paid an hour (time I'm at my job) I get paid the same driving tractor as instructing. And I have over 40k in student loans so %20 of my monthy income goes to paying those off. So thats pretty cool. Plus for that amount of money (equates to probably 9-10 an hour) I get to also put more money into training to get my CFII so that I can make $2 more an hour and I'm responsible for someones life and if I screw up at all there is a good chance my license will be taken away (doctors can cut off the wrong leg and still go about there practice) or even better if my student does something stupid at any time during his lifetime he can sue me (or his surviving family) can sue me for giving inadequate instruction. Ok so then I'll do this 2-3 years and get on with a regional, there is some good news I may be bringing home $1500 a month! awesome. So I'll make under 30k for about 3-5 years then If I'm lucky I can get a job with a major airline, oh thats right Jet Blue, SWA and Continental are the only ones hiring. so chances aren't that great.(I do believe more will be hiring when I get to that point) so I'm 28-30 getting on with a major, lets say AA, I'll make 26000 the first year. 6-8 years AFTER I GRADUATE I'm making less than truck driver by ALOT. SO I fly for 5 years and if the industry has a good period and I don't get laid off I finally make it to captain and get paid 112,000 dollars a year. And what do I get for that a lot of time a way from home (Especially if you commute) long days eating crappy food which I have to make shure I don't eat too much of so I don't lose my medical which I could loose for some freak reason anyway. Plus I have 200 peoples lives in my hands operating a 200 million dollar aircraft. Oh and I'm tested about every 6 months to make shure that I am still competent (no test for brain surgeons and if they show up drunk to the job nobody cares). And at the end of the day all I want to do is get home to see my family (which I might be on wife #2 by this point) I stand there as the passengers are getting off and some a-hole is thinking boy this guy gets paid too much.
I think only a complete moron could think pilots get paid too much.
I's a college graduate , flying professional if you will, and to make ends meet I drive tractors in the summer and feed cows in the winter. If I figure what I really get paid an hour (time I'm at my job) I get paid the same driving tractor as instructing. And I have over 40k in student loans so %20 of my monthy income goes to paying those off. So thats pretty cool. Plus for that amount of money (equates to probably 9-10 an hour) I get to also put more money into training to get my CFII so that I can make $2 more an hour and I'm responsible for someones life and if I screw up at all there is a good chance my license will be taken away (doctors can cut off the wrong leg and still go about there practice) or even better if my student does something stupid at any time during his lifetime he can sue me (or his surviving family) can sue me for giving inadequate instruction. Ok so then I'll do this 2-3 years and get on with a regional, there is some good news I may be bringing home $1500 a month! awesome. So I'll make under 30k for about 3-5 years then If I'm lucky I can get a job with a major airline, oh thats right Jet Blue, SWA and Continental are the only ones hiring. so chances aren't that great.(I do believe more will be hiring when I get to that point) so I'm 28-30 getting on with a major, lets say AA, I'll make 26000 the first year. 6-8 years AFTER I GRADUATE I'm making less than truck driver by ALOT. SO I fly for 5 years and if the industry has a good period and I don't get laid off I finally make it to captain and get paid 112,000 dollars a year. And what do I get for that a lot of time a way from home (Especially if you commute) long days eating crappy food which I have to make shure I don't eat too much of so I don't lose my medical which I could loose for some freak reason anyway. Plus I have 200 peoples lives in my hands operating a 200 million dollar aircraft. Oh and I'm tested about every 6 months to make shure that I am still competent (no test for brain surgeons and if they show up drunk to the job nobody cares). And at the end of the day all I want to do is get home to see my family (which I might be on wife #2 by this point) I stand there as the passengers are getting off and some a-hole is thinking boy this guy gets paid too much.
I think only a complete moron could think pilots get paid too much.
03-20-2006, 04:01 AM
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Get on the Bus -- or get off
People here are whining about my previous post; some are saying "under your proposal, experienced pilots will make the same salary as bus drivers!"
Well, guess what? You're right. But that's just my point: pilots ARE bus drivers. At least as far as salary scales go.
Yes, I'm aware the training costs for airplane pilots are vastly greater than for bus drivers; there's obviously no comparison there. The currency requirements are equally vastly different. So why should pilots be paid like bus drivers?
There's really only one answer: because the market ALLOWS pilots to be paid like bus drivers -- because so many people are interested in being pilots that they'll ACCEPT bus-driver salaries.
I know, I know -- plenty of pilots reading this are saying "No way I'll ever agree to that!" But the facts speak for themselves, regardless of whether some people are willing to accept it: even as mainline pilot salaries have nosedived in recent years, the number of new entrants into the pilot workforce has remained steady. And I think there's one main reason for that.
It's that flying airplanes is inherently pleasurable. Plenty of people are willing to endure a low salary, frequent separation from family, the potential liability, coping with weather, etc., as long as they can fly professionally. And that's really the bottom line, boys and girls. It's the reason why new pilots continue to flood the market, and it's the reason why the natural level of pilot salaries is going to continue to fall.
I simply urge pilots to understand and accept this truth so they can get on with their lives. If some pilots can't/won't accept this, this is a good time to move on to another career field.
After all, there's nothing inherently shameful about being a bus driver -- it's good, honest work. Just like flying.
Well, guess what? You're right. But that's just my point: pilots ARE bus drivers. At least as far as salary scales go.
Yes, I'm aware the training costs for airplane pilots are vastly greater than for bus drivers; there's obviously no comparison there. The currency requirements are equally vastly different. So why should pilots be paid like bus drivers?
There's really only one answer: because the market ALLOWS pilots to be paid like bus drivers -- because so many people are interested in being pilots that they'll ACCEPT bus-driver salaries.
I know, I know -- plenty of pilots reading this are saying "No way I'll ever agree to that!" But the facts speak for themselves, regardless of whether some people are willing to accept it: even as mainline pilot salaries have nosedived in recent years, the number of new entrants into the pilot workforce has remained steady. And I think there's one main reason for that.
It's that flying airplanes is inherently pleasurable. Plenty of people are willing to endure a low salary, frequent separation from family, the potential liability, coping with weather, etc., as long as they can fly professionally. And that's really the bottom line, boys and girls. It's the reason why new pilots continue to flood the market, and it's the reason why the natural level of pilot salaries is going to continue to fall.
I simply urge pilots to understand and accept this truth so they can get on with their lives. If some pilots can't/won't accept this, this is a good time to move on to another career field.
After all, there's nothing inherently shameful about being a bus driver -- it's good, honest work. Just like flying.
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