Airfares
03-21-2006, 06:42 AM
#41
On Reserve
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: CFI
Posts: 24
skyhigh- I'm not complaining I'm just saying there are a lot of things you have to go to be an airline pilot and the reason people are willing to fly for 25,000 at a regional is the belief that once they put in their dues they will have a good paying job at major. For all you have to go through if you top out at 100 k it is really not worth it.
03-21-2006, 07:53 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: MD-11/10 Captain
Posts: 533
Boy, do I feel better. We have a couple of "experts" here to tell us all how wrong we are in literally every sense of the word. We were wrong to get involved in airline flying in the first place. We're wrong to believe that we're actually worth what we make and possibly even a little more. We're wrong to have the nerve to suggest that other people actually get involved in this business. Blah, blah, blah.
We have one guy who has given up after some bad luck and maybe some bad decisions. And we have the new "expert" who obviously knows more than all of us put together. Despite our experience and the fact that we're living it. Like I said. Blah, blah, blah.
We have one guy who has given up after some bad luck and maybe some bad decisions. And we have the new "expert" who obviously knows more than all of us put together. Despite our experience and the fact that we're living it. Like I said. Blah, blah, blah.
03-21-2006, 07:59 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Right Seat 744
Posts: 946
I agree with tomgoodman. All those "professional pilots" being hired at the regionals with 500tt/100 muti should read "Flying The Line" and "Flying The Line Vol II", both by George E. Hopkins
Last edited by crewdawg52; 03-21-2006 at 08:03 AM.
03-21-2006, 08:00 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
Originally Posted by recleared
tomgoodman,
I am a traditionalist in this business and have nearly thirty years of flying experience and I must say if more pilots took the time to read "Flying the Line" they may form another opinion on the matter of pay. It is surprising after all these years and all the changes in our industry to see some posts here articulating acceptance of what I call the "bankrupt wages" of the troubled carriers as the new standard wage.
I should think everyone of us should see this catastrophy as more short term and continue to keep the forward vison necessary to push for increased wages rather than the lowered wages as a permanent solution to cut costs. I beleive if you were to adjust the 100k wage for inflation indicies it would be much less than that paid in the sixty's. Looking at the productivity of the asset and how much money that airplane generates, ala a company plant manager, over the course of the year and one can make the point that the product produced, or revenue generated justifies this in todays business world. Somehow, when the excess capacity is removed this mechanism of business balance will provide the opportunity to increase the bankruptcy wages we see now. We are an impatient group but over time these factors will balance again and create the environment for increased pay rates.
Considering all that has been given up, i.e. pension guarantees, work rules, medical coverages and schedules just to name a few...and the market will once again realign in my opinion. The question only remains when will that occur? What form it will take and what the cost associated with producing the final product will be.
I am a traditionalist in this business and have nearly thirty years of flying experience and I must say if more pilots took the time to read "Flying the Line" they may form another opinion on the matter of pay. It is surprising after all these years and all the changes in our industry to see some posts here articulating acceptance of what I call the "bankrupt wages" of the troubled carriers as the new standard wage.
I should think everyone of us should see this catastrophy as more short term and continue to keep the forward vison necessary to push for increased wages rather than the lowered wages as a permanent solution to cut costs. I beleive if you were to adjust the 100k wage for inflation indicies it would be much less than that paid in the sixty's. Looking at the productivity of the asset and how much money that airplane generates, ala a company plant manager, over the course of the year and one can make the point that the product produced, or revenue generated justifies this in todays business world. Somehow, when the excess capacity is removed this mechanism of business balance will provide the opportunity to increase the bankruptcy wages we see now. We are an impatient group but over time these factors will balance again and create the environment for increased pay rates.
Considering all that has been given up, i.e. pension guarantees, work rules, medical coverages and schedules just to name a few...and the market will once again realign in my opinion. The question only remains when will that occur? What form it will take and what the cost associated with producing the final product will be.
Hear, Hear..........Things will turn around. The question is will it be sooner than later............I believe it will be sooner. Pilots will once again have to pick themselves up, dust themselves off and get on with life just like they always have. Just my humble opinion.
03-21-2006, 12:41 PM
#45
Guest
Posts: n/a
I stand by my previous postings. Pilots can wax optimistic all they want and talk about things "balancing" in their favor in the future in terms of salary and benefits. But I say again: as long as the intake into the pilot workforce remains as strong as it has been now for many years, the simple law of supply and demand will result in permanent severe pressure on pilot salaries. I don't see any relief on that score.
03-21-2006, 01:32 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
Originally Posted by Poundstone
I stand by my previous postings. Pilots can wax optimistic all they want and talk about things "balancing" in their favor in the future in terms of salary and benefits. But I say again: as long as the intake into the pilot workforce remains as strong as it has been now for many years, the simple law of supply and demand will result in permanent severe pressure on pilot salaries. I don't see any relief on that score.
Everyone here agrees that things are on the bottom right now...........no one will argue that point.
Things will rebound again. Whether it is sooner or later remains to be seen.
The legacy carriers are doing the same thing they did during the previous 3 Oil shocks as well as recessions and deregualtion. They are cost cutting and reducing service, furloughing and restructuring.
I remember in the 70's there were a naysayers saying the end is near.. If you were around then there were thousands of lay offs at all the Majors (Delta excluded)...............................record hiring begain in the early 80's
When the "B" scale years started in the 80's........there were naysayers saying the end is near...................................record hiring in the late 80's and again in the mid 90's after a short recession.
If you have been in this business long you know it is extremely cyclical.
The majors WILL rebound again................there is a slight chance that 1 carrier could liquidate although I think all the majors will weather the storm.
The US Airline CEO's have simply found a way to cut/void Labor contracts through the BK courts instead of negotiations. They have slashed their labor expenses by 50%. Just wait and see what happens in the industry as soon as Delta settles with its pilots. Recalls will come, new hiring will follow.
The pay scales and bennies won't be what they were but things will rebound.
Look at the European carriers. Most of them are doing OK and the European econonmy is on it's a$$. They are facing LCC's over there as well as deregulation of the european union.
The sky ain't falling ...........chicken little........it's just a bad storm.......................blue skies will return
03-21-2006, 01:44 PM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: Retired 121 pilot
Posts: 1,032
Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
........it's just a bad storm.......................blue skies will return
03-21-2006, 05:29 PM
#48
On Reserve
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: CFI
Posts: 24
I think a lot of the people on this board are too young to remember (including myself) when people just didn't get airline jobs, a lot of older pilots I have talked to remember times in the 70's and 80's during downturns when it was nearly impossible to get an airline job and nobody got to the majors before they were 40. In that respect were better off than in previous airlines recessions.
I think the other thing we need to realize (for the people that think legacy carriers are things of the past) that if oil was at 2000 prices the airlines would be making more money than they ever have. For example American is paying somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.95 a gallon for jet, southwest is paying the neighboorhood of 1.65. (Last year the difference was greater, but now some of SWA hedges are expiring) Last year American spent about 5 billion dollars on jet fuel. American spend 16% more on jet than SWA. Times 5 billion by 16% and you get 800 million dollars. Last year American lost 93 million, so were talking probably over 700 million profit last year if they AA was paying the same for fuel. I realize it is not as simple as this but it still shows what the airlines are up against.
I think the turnaround for the big carriers will come when swa is paying the same as everyone else. They will have to raise ticket prices (which they already have started) which will allow industry wide prices to rise and more closely reflect what it really costs to operate these aircraft.
I think the other thing we need to realize (for the people that think legacy carriers are things of the past) that if oil was at 2000 prices the airlines would be making more money than they ever have. For example American is paying somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.95 a gallon for jet, southwest is paying the neighboorhood of 1.65. (Last year the difference was greater, but now some of SWA hedges are expiring) Last year American spent about 5 billion dollars on jet fuel. American spend 16% more on jet than SWA. Times 5 billion by 16% and you get 800 million dollars. Last year American lost 93 million, so were talking probably over 700 million profit last year if they AA was paying the same for fuel. I realize it is not as simple as this but it still shows what the airlines are up against.
I think the turnaround for the big carriers will come when swa is paying the same as everyone else. They will have to raise ticket prices (which they already have started) which will allow industry wide prices to rise and more closely reflect what it really costs to operate these aircraft.
03-21-2006, 05:46 PM
#49
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Ranger
Originally Posted by Ranger
Boy, do I feel better. We have a couple of "experts" here to tell us all how wrong we are in literally every sense of the word. We were wrong to get involved in airline flying in the first place. We're wrong to believe that we're actually worth what we make and possibly even a little more. We're wrong to have the nerve to suggest that other people actually get involved in this business. Blah, blah, blah.
We have one guy who has given up after some bad luck and maybe some bad decisions. And we have the new "expert" who obviously knows more than all of us put together. Despite our experience and the fact that we're living it. Like I said. Blah, blah, blah.
We have one guy who has given up after some bad luck and maybe some bad decisions. And we have the new "expert" who obviously knows more than all of us put together. Despite our experience and the fact that we're living it. Like I said. Blah, blah, blah.
You've got it made. Now why don't you ride off into the sunset and stop rubbing it in on how great you have it? The current generation faces a different world than your 1979 coma.
Your biggest fan,
SkyHigh
03-21-2006, 05:53 PM
#50
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Amen Brother
Originally Posted by cowboypilot
skyhigh- I'm not complaining I'm just saying there are a lot of things you have to go to be an airline pilot and the reason people are willing to fly for 25,000 at a regional is the belief that once they put in their dues they will have a good paying job at major. For all you have to go through if you top out at 100 k it is really not worth it.
You have just been given the gift of sight. You obviously see the reality and understand why others who are 10 years or more down the road are dissatisfied. It is easy to get to the regionals, but that is where most stay. The majors are shrinking or are rapidly becoming like the regionals as far as pay and working conditions. This is the point that Poundstone was trying to make. You are still young enough to save yourself? I would take a good and hard look at the statistics and develop a thorough understanding of your true chances of making it to the 100K mark. Why even the overly optimistic Ranger places ones chances at one in 20. You seem to have some self respect. Do your research.
SkyHigh
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