Airfares
03-20-2006, 05:44 AM
#31
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Yea !!!
Originally Posted by Poundstone
People here are whining about my previous post; some are saying "under your proposal, experienced pilots will make the same salary as bus drivers!"
Well, guess what? You're right. But that's just my point: pilots ARE bus drivers. At least as far as salary scales go.
Yes, I'm aware the training costs for airplane pilots are vastly greater than for bus drivers; there's obviously no comparison there. The currency requirements are equally vastly different. So why should pilots be paid like bus drivers?
There's really only one answer: because the market ALLOWS pilots to be paid like bus drivers -- because so many people are interested in being pilots that they'll ACCEPT bus-driver salaries.
I know, I know -- plenty of pilots reading this are saying "No way I'll ever agree to that!" But the facts speak for themselves, regardless of whether some people are willing to accept it: even as mainline pilot salaries have nosedived in recent years, the number of new entrants into the pilot workforce has remained steady. And I think there's one main reason for that.
It's that flying airplanes is inherently pleasurable. Plenty of people are willing to endure a low salary, frequent separation from family, the potential liability, coping with weather, etc., as long as they can fly professionally. And that's really the bottom line, boys and girls. It's the reason why new pilots continue to flood the market, and it's the reason why the natural level of pilot salaries is going to continue to fall.
I simply urge pilots to understand and accept this truth so they can get on with their lives. If some pilots can't/won't accept this, this is a good time to move on to another career field.
After all, there's nothing inherently shameful about being a bus driver -- it's good, honest work. Just like flying.
Well, guess what? You're right. But that's just my point: pilots ARE bus drivers. At least as far as salary scales go.
Yes, I'm aware the training costs for airplane pilots are vastly greater than for bus drivers; there's obviously no comparison there. The currency requirements are equally vastly different. So why should pilots be paid like bus drivers?
There's really only one answer: because the market ALLOWS pilots to be paid like bus drivers -- because so many people are interested in being pilots that they'll ACCEPT bus-driver salaries.
I know, I know -- plenty of pilots reading this are saying "No way I'll ever agree to that!" But the facts speak for themselves, regardless of whether some people are willing to accept it: even as mainline pilot salaries have nosedived in recent years, the number of new entrants into the pilot workforce has remained steady. And I think there's one main reason for that.
It's that flying airplanes is inherently pleasurable. Plenty of people are willing to endure a low salary, frequent separation from family, the potential liability, coping with weather, etc., as long as they can fly professionally. And that's really the bottom line, boys and girls. It's the reason why new pilots continue to flood the market, and it's the reason why the natural level of pilot salaries is going to continue to fall.
I simply urge pilots to understand and accept this truth so they can get on with their lives. If some pilots can't/won't accept this, this is a good time to move on to another career field.
After all, there's nothing inherently shameful about being a bus driver -- it's good, honest work. Just like flying.
Yea !! What he said, so there !!!!
SkyHigh
03-20-2006, 03:02 PM
#32
done, gone skiing
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Rocking chair
Posts: 1,601
still chores to be done, now git to it!
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Yea !! What he said, so there !!!!
SkyHigh
SkyHigh
03-21-2006, 04:46 AM
#33
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Poundstone
dckozak,
For a long time I felt as though I was a lone voice in the wilderness. This poundstone guy seems to have promise. I have a feeling that more like him are coming. Poundstone, you have a gift. Your wisdom is sorely needed on these forums.
SkyHigh
For a long time I felt as though I was a lone voice in the wilderness. This poundstone guy seems to have promise. I have a feeling that more like him are coming. Poundstone, you have a gift. Your wisdom is sorely needed on these forums.
SkyHigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 03-21-2006 at 05:06 AM.
03-21-2006, 05:00 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Right Seat 744
Posts: 946
The one thing I don't buy is the idea of over capacity. Our load factor is around 85%, every month, since last fall.
Here's another thing. Our "expert" V.P. in marketing has been saying for several years that the public won't go for a $5 - $10 raise in airfares for a r/t ticket. Now he decided the public will pay $15 extra for an aisle seat........WTF!
Here's another thing. Our "expert" V.P. in marketing has been saying for several years that the public won't go for a $5 - $10 raise in airfares for a r/t ticket. Now he decided the public will pay $15 extra for an aisle seat........WTF!
03-21-2006, 05:01 AM
#35
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Complain !!
Originally Posted by cowboypilot
I think the problem is the general public, or ignorant people like poundstone, don't realize what you have to go through to become a airline pilot. I have some buddies who are seniors in college getting degrees in construction managment already have contracts for 50k a year with company truck.
I's a college graduate , flying professional if you will, and to make ends meet I drive tractors in the summer and feed cows in the winter. If I figure what I really get paid an hour (time I'm at my job) I get paid the same driving tractor as instructing. And I have over 40k in student loans so %20 of my monthy income goes to paying those off. So thats pretty cool. Plus for that amount of money (equates to probably 9-10 an hour) I get to also put more money into training to get my CFII so that I can make $2 more an hour and I'm responsible for someones life and if I screw up at all there is a good chance my license will be taken away (doctors can cut off the wrong leg and still go about there practice) or even better if my student does something stupid at any time during his lifetime he can sue me (or his surviving family) can sue me for giving inadequate instruction. Ok so then I'll do this 2-3 years and get on with a regional, there is some good news I may be bringing home $1500 a month! awesome. So I'll make under 30k for about 3-5 years then If I'm lucky I can get a job with a major airline, oh thats right Jet Blue, SWA and Continental are the only ones hiring. so chances aren't that great.(I do believe more will be hiring when I get to that point) so I'm 28-30 getting on with a major, lets say AA, I'll make 26000 the first year. 6-8 years AFTER I GRADUATE I'm making less than truck driver by ALOT. SO I fly for 5 years and if the industry has a good period and I don't get laid off I finally make it to captain and get paid 112,000 dollars a year. And what do I get for that a lot of time a way from home (Especially if you commute) long days eating crappy food which I have to make shure I don't eat too much of so I don't lose my medical which I could loose for some freak reason anyway. Plus I have 200 peoples lives in my hands operating a 200 million dollar aircraft. Oh and I'm tested about every 6 months to make shure that I am still competent (no test for brain surgeons and if they show up drunk to the job nobody cares). And at the end of the day all I want to do is get home to see my family (which I might be on wife #2 by this point) I stand there as the passengers are getting off and some a-hole is thinking boy this guy gets paid too much.
I think only a complete moron could think pilots get paid too much.
I's a college graduate , flying professional if you will, and to make ends meet I drive tractors in the summer and feed cows in the winter. If I figure what I really get paid an hour (time I'm at my job) I get paid the same driving tractor as instructing. And I have over 40k in student loans so %20 of my monthy income goes to paying those off. So thats pretty cool. Plus for that amount of money (equates to probably 9-10 an hour) I get to also put more money into training to get my CFII so that I can make $2 more an hour and I'm responsible for someones life and if I screw up at all there is a good chance my license will be taken away (doctors can cut off the wrong leg and still go about there practice) or even better if my student does something stupid at any time during his lifetime he can sue me (or his surviving family) can sue me for giving inadequate instruction. Ok so then I'll do this 2-3 years and get on with a regional, there is some good news I may be bringing home $1500 a month! awesome. So I'll make under 30k for about 3-5 years then If I'm lucky I can get a job with a major airline, oh thats right Jet Blue, SWA and Continental are the only ones hiring. so chances aren't that great.(I do believe more will be hiring when I get to that point) so I'm 28-30 getting on with a major, lets say AA, I'll make 26000 the first year. 6-8 years AFTER I GRADUATE I'm making less than truck driver by ALOT. SO I fly for 5 years and if the industry has a good period and I don't get laid off I finally make it to captain and get paid 112,000 dollars a year. And what do I get for that a lot of time a way from home (Especially if you commute) long days eating crappy food which I have to make shure I don't eat too much of so I don't lose my medical which I could loose for some freak reason anyway. Plus I have 200 peoples lives in my hands operating a 200 million dollar aircraft. Oh and I'm tested about every 6 months to make shure that I am still competent (no test for brain surgeons and if they show up drunk to the job nobody cares). And at the end of the day all I want to do is get home to see my family (which I might be on wife #2 by this point) I stand there as the passengers are getting off and some a-hole is thinking boy this guy gets paid too much.
I think only a complete moron could think pilots get paid too much.
If you are only a CFI and have already developed such an advanced state of complaining then you had better brace your self for a long and painful career.
SkyHigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 03-21-2006 at 05:16 AM.
03-21-2006, 05:06 AM
#36
Guest
Posts: n/a
More Ammo Supporting My Case
After my two previous posts, I came upon a New York Times article from March 10 that had some interesting quotes in support of my case. Take a look at these:
1. "It's hard for me to feel sorry for them (pilots)," said Capt. Jeffrey R. Hefner, the safety chairman of the union that represents pilots at Southwest Airlines, who have always flown longer hours than pilots at older airlines.
"They're a bunch of spoiled brats," he said. "Historically, this has been a really cushy job once you get to the majors. You make a lot of money and you don't have to fly a lot. But there had to be a market balancing at some point."
2. The dissatisfaction at the top has not changed some basics of the field: young people still dream of flying, and people who fly small planes still aspire to fly bigger ones. Legions of laid-off pilots hope to be hired back, even at reduced pay levels.
"They must love it," said Arnold I. Barnett, a professor of management science at the Sloan School of Management at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
1. "It's hard for me to feel sorry for them (pilots)," said Capt. Jeffrey R. Hefner, the safety chairman of the union that represents pilots at Southwest Airlines, who have always flown longer hours than pilots at older airlines.
"They're a bunch of spoiled brats," he said. "Historically, this has been a really cushy job once you get to the majors. You make a lot of money and you don't have to fly a lot. But there had to be a market balancing at some point."
2. The dissatisfaction at the top has not changed some basics of the field: young people still dream of flying, and people who fly small planes still aspire to fly bigger ones. Legions of laid-off pilots hope to be hired back, even at reduced pay levels.
"They must love it," said Arnold I. Barnett, a professor of management science at the Sloan School of Management at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
03-21-2006, 05:09 AM
#37
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Man the Life Boats !!
Originally Posted by crewdawg52
The one thing I don't buy is the idea of over capacity. Our load factor is around 85%, every month, since last fall.
Here's another thing. Our "expert" V.P. in marketing has been saying for several years that the public won't go for a $5 - $10 raise in airfares for a r/t ticket. Now he decided the public will pay $15 extra for an aisle seat........WTF!
Here's another thing. Our "expert" V.P. in marketing has been saying for several years that the public won't go for a $5 - $10 raise in airfares for a r/t ticket. Now he decided the public will pay $15 extra for an aisle seat........WTF!
They are grabbing at anything that might help.
SkyHigh
03-21-2006, 05:12 AM
#38
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
I've got one !!!
Here is another quote from a resent article.
"If you're looking to break into the industry, it's one I wouldn't recommend at any level (pilots) ," airline consultant Michael Boyd said. "Overall, this is not going to be a bonanza in hiring in the airline industry."
Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:41 PM ET
By Kyle Peterson
CHICAGO, March 19 (Reuters)
SkyHigh
"If you're looking to break into the industry, it's one I wouldn't recommend at any level (pilots) ," airline consultant Michael Boyd said. "Overall, this is not going to be a bonanza in hiring in the airline industry."
Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:41 PM ET
By Kyle Peterson
CHICAGO, March 19 (Reuters)
SkyHigh
03-21-2006, 05:45 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: 767A (Ret)
Posts: 6,248
Behncke's nightmare
Originally Posted by Poundstone
After my two previous posts, I came upon a New York Times article from March 10 that had some interesting quotes in support of my case. Take a look at these:
1. "It's hard for me to feel sorry for them (pilots)," said Capt. Jeffrey R. Hefner, the safety chairman of the union that represents pilots at Southwest Airlines, who have always flown longer hours than pilots at older airlines.
"They're a bunch of spoiled brats," he said. "Historically, this has been a really cushy job once you get to the majors. You make a lot of money and you don't have to fly a lot. But there had to be a market balancing at some point."
2. The dissatisfaction at the top has not changed some basics of the field: young people still dream of flying, and people who fly small planes still aspire to fly bigger ones. Legions of laid-off pilots hope to be hired back, even at reduced pay levels.
"They must love it," said Arnold I. Barnett, a professor of management science at the Sloan School of Management at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
1. "It's hard for me to feel sorry for them (pilots)," said Capt. Jeffrey R. Hefner, the safety chairman of the union that represents pilots at Southwest Airlines, who have always flown longer hours than pilots at older airlines.
"They're a bunch of spoiled brats," he said. "Historically, this has been a really cushy job once you get to the majors. You make a lot of money and you don't have to fly a lot. But there had to be a market balancing at some point."
2. The dissatisfaction at the top has not changed some basics of the field: young people still dream of flying, and people who fly small planes still aspire to fly bigger ones. Legions of laid-off pilots hope to be hired back, even at reduced pay levels.
"They must love it," said Arnold I. Barnett, a professor of management science at the Sloan School of Management at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
1. Capt. Hefner and his union immediately disavowed that quote as a reporter's fabrication, but it is true that lots of people feel that way, including many pilots.
2. This is why Dave Behncke founded ALPA. If no qualified pilots were willing to work for low wages under unsafe conditions, a union would not have been necessary. He envisioned a nationwide union of ALL airline pilots, but it never happened. Too bad, because it is not in the public interest to have airplanes crewed by the hungriest people who can pass a check ride, and that's where we appear to be heading.
I recommend "Flying the Line" by George E. Hopkins
03-21-2006, 06:37 AM
#40
Guest
Posts: n/a
tomgoodman,
I am a traditionalist in this business and have nearly thirty years of flying experience and I must say if more pilots took the time to read "Flying the Line" they may form another opinion on the matter of pay. It is surprising after all these years and all the changes in our industry to see some posts here articulating acceptance of what I call the "bankrupt wages" of the troubled carriers as the new standard wage.
I should think everyone of us should see this catastrophy as more short term and continue to keep the forward vison necessary to push for increased wages rather than the lowered wages as a permanent solution to cut costs. I beleive if you were to adjust the 100k wage for inflation indicies it would be much less than that paid in the sixty's. Looking at the productivity of the asset and how much money that airplane generates, ala a company plant manager, over the course of the year and one can make the point that the product produced, or revenue generated justifies this in todays business world. Somehow, when the excess capacity is removed this mechanism of business balance will provide the opportunity to increase the bankruptcy wages we see now. We are an impatient group but over time these factors will balance again and create the environment for increased pay rates.
Considering all that has been given up, i.e. pension guarantees, work rules, medical coverages and schedules just to name a few...and the market will once again realign in my opinion. The question only remains when will that occur? What form it will take and what the cost associated with producing the final product will be.
I am a traditionalist in this business and have nearly thirty years of flying experience and I must say if more pilots took the time to read "Flying the Line" they may form another opinion on the matter of pay. It is surprising after all these years and all the changes in our industry to see some posts here articulating acceptance of what I call the "bankrupt wages" of the troubled carriers as the new standard wage.
I should think everyone of us should see this catastrophy as more short term and continue to keep the forward vison necessary to push for increased wages rather than the lowered wages as a permanent solution to cut costs. I beleive if you were to adjust the 100k wage for inflation indicies it would be much less than that paid in the sixty's. Looking at the productivity of the asset and how much money that airplane generates, ala a company plant manager, over the course of the year and one can make the point that the product produced, or revenue generated justifies this in todays business world. Somehow, when the excess capacity is removed this mechanism of business balance will provide the opportunity to increase the bankruptcy wages we see now. We are an impatient group but over time these factors will balance again and create the environment for increased pay rates.
Considering all that has been given up, i.e. pension guarantees, work rules, medical coverages and schedules just to name a few...and the market will once again realign in my opinion. The question only remains when will that occur? What form it will take and what the cost associated with producing the final product will be.
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