Originally Posted by doogiebarnes

The reason Skybus failed was his pilots were overpaid the first time. Now with so many kids on the street, he should be able to rustle up some cheap labor.
Yep, less expensive pilots should work just fine.

Originally Posted by mulcher

And no I would not have worked at swa then. That would have been a mistake then, now knowing the history, but a lot of people play the lottery and never win.

Originally Posted by mulcher

I am not associated with any of them. Lets blame the first pilots at AA or TWA for the misfortunes then. I am sure they took substandard pay.

Heck why dont we blame the Wright Brothers for aviations mis fortunes. They flew for free trying to put a flying machine in the air.

Originally Posted by B727DRVR

Hey Mulcher,

There you go again pontificating about start up carrier pay... Many of us here have attempted to educate you on SWA's history of abysmal pay and work rules, most recently de727ups. And 30 years later, you guys are at the top! You just haven't been listening...
Lest you forget your previous bashing of Virgin America and the response...:


Quote:
Originally Posted by mulcher
Shoot I get this working 14/15 days a month as an FO at SWA. Now thats not bad coin. Happy B day anyway.

I agree with BB send Branson that thank you card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mulcher
I chose to work at a place that offered that. The same choice they have. I wouldnt work for those wages. I agree with your statements also, but I am glad you could point them out. Plus with all the success VX guys tout. I think its time for them to stand up and raise the bar.

I think its a good analogy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mulcher
SO that makes it ok for VA guys to lower the bar? I dont think so. Like I sad 100 times before...if SWA paid like that now I WOULD NOT WORK AT SWA. I chose to apply to a company that actually pays its employees. SWA pilots werent bragging how great it was and how high the loads where either. They were barely staying alive. If things are so peachy at VA then the pliots need to start doing something about their low pay. Branson has deep pockets let him pay better.

Wow Mulcher,

That is definitely the most condescending, pompous, and obtuse group of posts I have read so far this month! (Ned Ryerson won that title last month=) ). I remember defending SWA pilots, similarly, years ago when THEY also were accused of lowering the bar, but you Mulcher are carrying it a little far.

Mulcher, you CHOSE to work at SWA........ ??? Really?!?! Was that the only place you applied or your first job in aviation? Did you keep the bar high in your job before SWA? How many of us in this business CHOOSE to work anywhere? You were CHOSEN and you were lucky (so far) to be at a great company with a great management. But any pilot with half a brain knows that this industry is a crap shoot. Pan Am, Eastern, Braniff, TWA... Now Chapter 11's at UAL, DAL, NWA, US Air, etc... I have good friends that left UPS to go to "the Majors" back in the late 90's and early 2000's. Who knew? I know people that turned down NetJets just a few years ago.. Again, who could have known? And, like it or not, there were Southwest pilots not too long ago that left to go to the "Majors". I also know many great pilots that spent their last $7000 (Pay for training, in some ways.. lowering the bar for Majors) for a B737 type for the SWA interview, but no dice.. That, just as easily, could have been you. Face it, Mulcher, pilots are pilots and there are "better" pilots than you and I working at Virgin America just as there are "better" pilots currently standing in the unemployment line. It's a crap shoot....

Sorry Mulcher, but with all the doom, gloom, shutdown, and furlough news on this site, it justs pains me to see you beating down these VA pilots for "lowering the bar". Coming from a Southwest Airlines pilot, I find this shocking, unsympathetic, and.. most of all, IRONIC! That's like China busting on Pakistan for flooding the steel industry with cheap steel... From these threads and your previous ones, it doesn't sound like you have ever suffered the sting of furlough or had to work your way up through the many land mines in this industry.. I don't know, maybe you have and you have just forgotten what it is like.. But seriously, have you ever been furloughed or have had to walk a picket line? I have, Mulcher, and I can tell you that it is an attitude adjustment.

I guarantee you that if you ever have to fill out another resume or ever go to a job fair, that you will at least consider a JB, VA or SX type job. And for the Delta guy, congrats on your not taking a JB-type job, but isn't that what SWA was just a few years ago? Being furloughed with recall rights from a Legacy is a big difference then a shutdown start-up. With a seniority number, you can afford to hold the line. If Delta shut down, your perspective may be different. If you can afford to get out of aviation, with your college degree and all work experience being in aviation, then more power to you for standing tall and not demeaning yourself with that lowly VA or SX flying job. Beware: Many airline recruiters will look down on you for taking a non-flying job (even if it's in aviation) or even a part-time flying job. Actual Quote from a "Major" airline recruiter: "I see here, Mr. B727DRVR, that you only averaged 200 hours per year from 1992-1994, don't you like to fly? Because we want people who love to fly.." My answer: "Sir, there were thousands of unemployed pilots on the street then, so I am proud that I was able to not only maintain currency, but do it despite the industry downturn" Oh, you say you won't but your unemployment from TX (SWA's HQ) will only pay you $756 every two weeks (I know this, unfortunately). If you have a wife, Kids, mortgage, etc., you will at least consider it. Oh yes, Mulcher, in your desperate attempt to maintain currency if you don't get recalled or if SWA doesn't exit Chapter 11, you will be walking through the many recruiters tables at the AirInc. Job Fair in your finest blue interview suit and red tie and handing your resume to anyone who will be willing to look at it,... "Oh yes, I'd love the opportunity to fly for Virgin America... Here's my resume... Yes, SWA was my last company and I am current and qualified in the B737.. Yes, it was a shame what happened to SWA". And you will be there with hundreds of others representing the now THOUSANDS of fellow pilots on the street. So, unless you are independently wealthy, have a rich spouse, parent, or uncle..., you should really put yourself in the shoes of the VA pilots and remember the days when the SWA pilots WERE the VA pilots that everyone was complaining about. And there will be some Mulcher-type pilot there looking down at you because you are a furloughed, down-on-your-luck SWA pilot, standing in the line for Virgin America at the job fair and then racing to the Skybus line before the show is over (There are 500 fellow pilots standing in that line, better have comfortable shoes..). But there will be a lot more B727DRVR-types that have been there and have your back. "Here Mulcher, I saved a place in the Skybus line for you... Any luck with VA??? I hear that they like furloughed Southwest guys because of the similar company cultures??"

Yes, SWA is a great company.. Management team, business model, fuel hedging, fantastic employee relations and morale. But lets face it, SWA has turned flying into Greyhound and the "Majors" have been in a race to the bottom to match SWA's pay, work rules, and customer amenities. A few years ago, a SWA pilot bragging about their pay and not working for "that kind of pay" would have been LAUGHABLE. But there was a time, not too long ago, when the same was said of pay and working conditions at SWA back then by "Major" airline pilots. And there was a "Mulcher" kind of pilot flying for one of those "Majors" that said he/she wouldn't work for Southwest at THOSE pay rates. Well Mulcher, would you have CHOSEN to fly for SWA back in the 80's or 90's when things were like VA now or would that have been beneath you too? Just where would you have CHOSEN to work in 1982, or 1989, or 1995, or 2000? Certainly, SWA's comparatively abysmal pay and Draconian work rules would have been beneath you then. It's a darn good thing that Southwest got its act together and rasied their pay and working conditions to your acceptable level (while the "Majors" lowered theirs) in time for you to graciously pick them to fly for. Why, they could have lost you to some other "better" airline in the 80's and 90's.... Whew, that was close.........

The "Bar" has been lowered and you now find yourself on top of the food chain; Maybe someday the lowly VA pilots will live up to your standard, but until then, try to put yourself into their (and most everyone else's) shoes.

Sorry everyone, probably including Mulcher, but this really pi55ed me off. The biggest problem for pilots has always been forgetting where we came from and not realizing that we can get back there all too quickly and easily. This battle has been going on as long as there have been pilots: The rich vs. the poor, the turboprops vs. RJ's vs. mainline, Upstart vs. low cost vs. legacy, military vs. civilian, pilot against pilot. My Dad said that it chapped his a55 that his fellow B707 pilots used to look down on the DC-6/7 pilots much like Eagle pilots were looked down upon in all-too-recent history. Back then, they looked down upon SWA but look at you now! Bottom Line: This industry is a crap shoot and if you are lucky to find yourself at an excellent carrier such as SWA, then consider yourself blessed. And remember to be nice to those on your way up the aviation career ladder (I mean F/A's, rampers, CSR's, janitors, "lesser" pilots jumpseating from "lesser" companies, everybody, etc.), because you may run into them on your way back down.

Happy Birthday Virgin America! And good luck to all of us out there in these tough times, including you Mulcher!

In Unity,

B727DRVR



In closing, I find it again ironic, unsympathetic, and funny that you STILL don't get it, Mulcher: VA, SX, JB, and SX2 ARE Southwest 30 years ago! Yes, Mulcher, we know that SWA 30 years ago was below your standards and that you wouln't have worked for them back then... LOL! Come on! Isn't that the "pot calling the kettle black", Liberace calling Elton John and George Michael Sissy boys?? GIve the start ups a break...

B727DRVR