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Old 02-16-2014 | 03:15 PM
  #149401  
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From: Light Chop
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Originally Posted by profit
I think you meant: step 3, profit..
1. today
2. more 76 seaters
3. profit
Old 02-16-2014 | 03:16 PM
  #149402  
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid
Let me say this, the only step 2 that I think works is when the true total cost of outsourcing exceeds it's value. Sure the cash cost could exceed income, but when it would be cheaper to have it in house even if it means losing the means to hold down mainline crew costs, then I think they'll do it.
You answered your own question well.

The first step (ironically enough) is to convince our own union to pursue unity as a goal. The highest levels of ALPA leadership are opposed to unity, as was evident in the handling of the Compass divestiture from our MEC. I've been told from several sources that Lee Moak intended to make 76 seat flying a distinct "craft and class" apart from "mainline" flying. This distinction is unfortunate, particularly for those of us who understand the economics of the aircraft platform and how advances in technology have changed those economics. 76 seats is an arbitrary number and pretty much indefensible if put under economic duress.

Some in Captain Moak's camp (not speaking for him because I do not know his personal position) still fear the Comair merger scenario and are still saying silly things like "seniority grab" while ignoring the fact that even Northwest, with 747's, did not get "Date of Hire." They continue to fight against unity and they support outsourcing. While fighting offshore outsourcing, they somehow ignore the fact that they support outsourcing at their own airline.

If we can convince our own union that unity is worth pursuing, then we build an economic model with Delta pilots performing Delta flying and then negotiate.

I believe the pseudo shortage of pilots for crappy jobs is an excellent opportunity to:
  • Provide pilots with a career where they do not have to surrender their longevity and seniority to the vagaries of a shell game, and
  • Delta gets pilots at a cost structure which allows them to efficiently deploy the right equipment on the right routes without artificial and arbitrary constraints
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
B) A lifer on the regional side that would sue ALPA if outsourcing was eliminated.
"Lifers" are not the only constraint ... there is something like $21 to $25 billion invested in the DCI system. That is not going away. I propose to extend our seniority list down to capture them and our flying.

Note that Pinnacle was one of the few to take concessions for a career path. Now many are learning their Bridge agreement was in fact a Bridge to Nowhere. If pilots are willing to give away 25% to 30% of their earnings for an interview wouldn't they be better served by reaching a similar agreement for a real seniority number?

Expressjet and Eagle said "NO." I'm sure however, if a real system seniority number were tied to the offer the answer would have been "YES." Management wants "YES." We should want UNITY. There is common ground we should explore which provides management a certain supply of pilots and provides pilots a seniority number they can use within that airline's system.

Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-16-2014 at 04:01 PM.
Old 02-16-2014 | 03:19 PM
  #149403  
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From: Light Chop
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My friend sent me this text, I'm going to throw this out as is

So I thought of an interesting legal issue for delta. Delta interviews Asa pilot who currently flies pax on flights that delta sells tickets for. Pilot fails interview, goes back to Asa, has mishap. Delta knowingly let a pilot they didn't approve of continue to fly their pax. Interesting issue brought on by outsourcing. If they failed hr interview delta probably has a decent argument. If they failed cog interview a little harder to argue you don't think they are good enough to fly mainline but your still comfortable putting pax on their jet. That's my vent for the day...
Old 02-16-2014 | 03:28 PM
  #149404  
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
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Originally Posted by CGfalconHerc
I just wanted to point out that RJ captains got a pretty good deal.
... and I just wanted to point out that virtually all the RJ Captains would have preferred to have a Delta number and get furloughed while you continued working ... and today while you enjoyed uninterrupted employment they would enjoy 12+ years of longevity instead of 5.
Old 02-16-2014 | 03:30 PM
  #149405  
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From: Light Chop
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Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
You answered your own question well.

The first step (ironically enough) is to convince our own union to pursue unity as a goal. The highest levels of ALPA leadership are opposed to unity, as was evident in the handling of the Compass divestiture from our MEC. I've been told from several sources that Lee Moak intended to make 76 seat flying a distinct "craft and class" apart from "mainline" flying. This distinction is unfortunate, particularly for those of us who understand the economics of the aircraft platform and how advances in technology have changed those economics. 76 seats is an arbitrary number and pretty much indefensible if put under economic duress.

Some in Captain Moak's camp (not speaking for him because I do not know his personal position) still fear the Comair merger scenario and are still saying silly things like "seniority grab" while ignoring the fact that even Northwest, with 747's, did not get "Date of Hire." They continue to fight against unity and they support outsourcing. While fighting offshore outsourcing, they somehow ignore the fact that they support outsourcing at their own airline.

If we can convince our own union that unity is worth pursuing, then we build an economic model with Delta pilots performing Delta flying and negotiate. I believe the pseudo shortage of pilots for crappy jobs is an excellent opportunity to:
  • Provide pilots with a career where they do not have to surrender their longevity and seniority to the vagaries of a shell game, and
  • Delta gets pilots at a cost structure which allows them to efficiently deploy the right equipment on the right routes without artificial and arbitrary constraints
"Lifers" are not the only constraint ... there is something like $21 to $25 billion invested in the DCI system. That is not going away. I propose to extend our seniority list down to capture them and our flying.

Note that Pinnacle was one of the few to take concessions for a career path. Now many are learning their Bridge agreement was in fact a Bridge to Nowhere. If pilots are willing to give away 25% to 30% of their earnings for an interview wouldn't they be better served by reaching a similar agreement for a real seniority number?

Expressjet and Eagle said "NO." I'm sure however, if a real system seniority number were tied to the offer the answer would have been "YES." Management wants "YES." We should want UNITY. There is common ground we should explore which provides management a certain supply of pilots and provides pilots a seniority number they can use within that airline's system.
I see better now what you're saying, but I have too many kids running around saying "momma" to get away with typing any more on the computer than this one long long sentence.
Old 02-16-2014 | 03:34 PM
  #149406  
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From: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid

The death of the 50 seater was about to provide that opportunity, then we threw them a lifeline and added 70 more jumbo RJs that are more profitable, lower CASM, better product, etc. Outsourcing got a desperately needed lifeline to continue for a long time.

We screwed up.
How did the MEC fail so badly on such a strategic level? Sure, we had MEMRAT. But the rank-and-file crewdog should not be expected to be a strategist; after all, that's why we're paying dues.

The MEC should have realized the ramifications of the 50 seat bailout. Why didn't they?
Old 02-16-2014 | 03:44 PM
  #149407  
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From: 777B
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Originally Posted by Purple Drank
How did the MEC fail so badly on such a strategic level? Sure, we had MEMRAT. But the rank-and-file crewdog should not be expected to be a strategist; after all, that's why we're paying dues.

The MEC should have realized the ramifications of the 50 seat bailout. Why didn't they?
Do you believe they didn't?
Old 02-16-2014 | 03:46 PM
  #149408  
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From: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
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Originally Posted by scambo1
Do you believe they didn't?
Good point.
Old 02-16-2014 | 03:51 PM
  #149409  
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
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Originally Posted by CGfalconHerc
I just wanted to point out that RJ captains got a pretty good deal.
... and I just wanted to point out that virtually all the RJ Captains would have preferred to have a Delta number and get furloughed while you continued working ... and today while you enjoyed uninterrupted employment they would enjoy 12+ years of longevity instead of 5, or the thousands still waiting ....

When they tried, the Delta pilots termed it a "seniority grab." But lets look at the truth. At ASA we had negotiated special seniority provisions which allowed concurrent seniority for Delta's bid restricted second officers who needed experience to upgrade to a command seat at Delta. Later, when furloughs happened we negotiated preferential hiring (for our admittedly inferior jobs) for any Delta pilots who wanted them ... and we were damn glad to get the great Delta pilots who did come over. We tried to help and assist the Delta pilots whenever they had a need we could help with.

ALPA merger policy was then ... status quo. By pay or equipment, either measure was a staple. Examples abound, like that of Pan Am Express, which was "merged" if you will by simply extending the Pan Am list down to capture the Ransome (Express) pilots. A couple of those Ransome guys eventually retired from Delta.

Years later, with ALPA merger policy significantly modified the Northwest merger introduced new equities into the mix, like the protection of advancement by speculated future attrition. Even so, the result was not date of hire. I've never heard a Delta pilot claim the Northwest merger was a "seniority grab." Although as a matter of the methodology employed the Northwest pilots were (understandably) much more aggressive than anything the ASA pilots could have mounted.

I saw the ASA / Comair proposal which never quite made the light of day. Imagine if you will, a zipper. You had the ASA and CMR pilots on each end of the unattached bottom. They remained within their current positions on their own list (unless the Company chose to merge the operation). They would also have a Delta system seniority number which they could use, if they wanted, to bid up into the Delta system when they had the seniority to hold a Delta job (MD88B, 727FO, whatever was most junior). I thought it a perfectly workable system which would have benefitted you by you rightfully taking a Delta job (admittedly on a smaller jet than you probably would have preferred).
Old 02-16-2014 | 03:59 PM
  #149410  
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
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Originally Posted by Purple Drank
How did the MEC fail so badly on such a strategic level?

The MEC should have realized the ramifications of the 50 seat bailout. Why didn't they?
Our MEC did not fail. They reached a compromise.

It is easy for me to take one area of a very complex agreement in isolation while ignoring the fact that above all else, our survey results are SHOW ME THE MONEY!

Delta Connection is a large and (depending how they allocate costs) very profitable business. Delta needed to re-fleet DCI. That need created bargaining capital for our MEC which they used to give multiple constituencies the improvements they sought. Reserve is so much better that now we junior losers can't even hold reserve anymore. With no changes in bidding status many of us are seeing a 20 to 25% year on year pay increase.

... and we are recovering flying. Upgrades are beginning to filter down and will pick up momentum.

While I voted against C2012, on balance I believe our those who worked on it did a good job.
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