Originally Posted by sailingfun

One of our former CEO's is rumored to have demanded the same engine on the 757 as the 767 to save maintenance costs. He could not grasp why that was not a option.

Originally Posted by DeadHead

Thought it was just me. Seems as though schedules have really tanked since 117 kicked in.

Originally Posted by JungleBus

Part 117 is a whole lot of chickens coming home to roost, I think.

1) Major airline pilot contracts contain fatigue protections more stringent than Part 121.
2) Major airlines outsource 50% of domestic departures to lowest-bidder regional airlines. Major pilots get bargaining credits, improve rates, enjoy nice profit sharing checks partially earned off the backs of regional FOs on foot stamps.
3) Regional airlines with contracts containing fatigue protections more stringent than Part 121 lose flying and eventually go out of business.
4) Remaining regional airlines fly their pilots to the bone, often right at Part 121 maximum flight times & min rest periods.
5) Lowest-bidder regional augers one in at Buffalo, blowing the lid off the industry. Regional work rules exposed.
6) Disgusted Congress passes Part 117 with fatigue protections considerably more stringent than major airline pilot contracts.
7) Pilots at lowest-bidder regionals no longer get worked to the bone. Major airline pilots lose a few days at home.
8) Major airline pilots biatch to no end about how unnecessary and what overkill Part 117 was.

You can't outsource half your domestic flying to the lowest bidder without some unintended consequences.

Originally Posted by CGfalconHerc

Junglebus..I'm getting the vibe that you're a champion of the "RJ pilots got screwed" and that mainline pilots are enjoying their profit sharing checks "on the backs of poor RJ pilots". As one of the former 1310 DAL furloughees, let me offer a different perspective;

RJ Captains didn't have any problems upgrading in a few years and logging a decades worth of TPIC on the backs of mainline furloughees.

RJ Captains at Comair didn't have any problems cashing Strike Assesment checks as mainline pilots honored their struck work out of CVG and tried to reduce the pay gap by making Comair pilots the highest paid RJ Captains in the industry.

RJ Captains didn't have any problem refusing to allow furloughed mainline pilots to get hired in the RIGHT seat at Comair in exchange of preferred interviews at DAL unless the lists were merged and all scope provisions were eliminated.

RJ Captains didn't have a problem supporting the RJDC to sue mainline ALPA.

RJ Captains didn't have a problem flying to the 121 max for the lowest bidder as long as they got to fly new, bigger turbine aircraft on routes that used to be flown by mainline 737, 727, M88, DC9 pilots.

Rj Captains didn't have any problem flying legacy passengers hub to hub, laying over in FCA, MSO, JAC and then non-revving with their families in first class to Paris while they made an average of $100k a year.

RJ Captains didn't have a problem using their thousands of hours of PIC to shop around for a SWA/JBLU/Frontier/Spirit/Allegiant/Suncountry/ect. job but then enjoy a flow-thru agreement to DAL and get a class date just weeks after our final furloughees get back to the line after a decade without their ID badge.

Sorry Junglebus. You just got hired at Delta, right? You better save the "on the backs of RJ pilots" for APC..'cause it ain't gonna fly when you're talking smack around 15 yr FO's who are still waiting for a chance to move to the left seat.

Here's what I've been doing while you've been an RJ Captain;

DFW 727C, SLC 727B, SLC 73NB..9/11..DFW M90B, CVG M88B, Furlough...Recall, ATL 737B, SLC 737B, SLC M90B, merger..SLC 320B.

Sorry you had it so rough. The pilot shortage and 1500 hr rule are gonna be huge windfalls for any RJ Captain hired on the front of the wave. You won the lottery, but you still want to ***** about having to buy a ticket.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

... and who negotiated outsourcing?

The "RJ Pilots" had their careers put on hold, just as you did.

The ASA pilots fought the removal of ALPA's alter ego protections and attempted a merger which would have unified DCI flying with pilots on the Delta list who would have been junior to you. The Delta MEC wanted no part of it.

Both the Delta and the Northwest MECs sold our flying when they traded scope for bargaining credits. Ostensibly the mainline pilots at least got money for the trade.

You, and your friends who like to blame "RJ Pilots" fail to understand who continues to be responsible for the Delta PWA .... Delta pilots.

Originally Posted by forgot to bid

Then the tangent into woe is the RJ pilot. Here's my two cents...

• RJ life sucked when it was 1900Cs and EMB-110s but it was a stepping stone and it's still structured that way regardless of the fact they now fly EMB-175s or what is tantamount to a Airbus A317.
• Mainline carriers hire by experience and you get the experience at the regionals. A pilot doesn't control what the regional flies, but if they want to get hired at DAL/UAL/AA, they got to fly whatever there is. If mainline carriers had scoped regionals and all they could fly is the B1900E models, we'd still done it.
• You can point fingers at major airline pilots because they control scope and to this day are still allowing the jumbo RJ fleet to grow. That said, a good portion of mainline pilots who had nothing to do with the scope sale or lack of reigning in scope with the introduction of the CRJ-100 and were furloughed after 9/11. They have the right to be pretty ****ed off at everybody involved and especially Comair.
• I think CGFalconHerc made some very good points that were subsequently overlooked.
• I think Timbo provides a lot of insight, not only on the original RJ debacle but also the Delta Express stuff.

Bar I still don't understand "unity", but all I want is to get the regionals (now majors) out of these things...







and into these...

Originally Posted by forgot to bid

Alright, just to recap...

Post A


Post B


Post C


Post D


I blame Deadhead.

But, I don't think the FAA was unaware of what was going on with fatigue and pilots, but to rewrite the rules required an accident even if the cause of the accident wasn't fatigue. Without an accident there was no reason to make a change and therefore no political leverage.

Then the tangent into woe is the RJ pilot. Here's my two cents...

• RJ life sucked when it was 1900Cs and EMB-110s but it was a stepping stone and it's still structured that way regardless of the fact they now fly EMB-175s or what is tantamount to a Airbus A317.
• Mainline carriers hire by experience and you get the experience at the regionals. A pilot doesn't control what the regional flies, but if they want to get hired at DAL/UAL/AA, they got to fly whatever there is. If mainline carriers had scoped regionals and all they could fly is the B1900E models, we'd still done it.
• You can point fingers at major airline pilots because they control scope and to this day are still allowing the jumbo RJ fleet to grow. That said, a good portion of mainline pilots who had nothing to do with the scope sale or lack of reigning in scope with the introduction of the CRJ-100 and were furloughed after 9/11. They have the right to be pretty ****ed off at everybody involved and especially Comair.
• I think CGFalconHerc made some very good points that were subsequently overlooked.
• I think Timbo provides a lot of insight, not only on the original RJ debacle but also the Delta Express stuff.

Bar I still don't understand "unity", but all I want is to get the regionals (now majors) out of these things...







and into these...

Originally Posted by Jay5150

FYI. Was down in the lounge the other day when Richard came through. I was at a computer and he walked up an introduced himself and started chatting. We talked about the current IROP and the one before. He used a colloquialism to describe that first one that is a phrase most of us on here might use......pretty funny. I won't repeat on a public forum just in case it's bad form.

He went on to say that DBMS is totally antiquated and wants it re-done.

That we should be getting and acknowledging re-routes during situations like that right on an-easy to use app on our phone with just a couple of clicks.
I didn't get into any big issues as he was trying to talk to as many folks as he could and I didn't want to hold him up.

Whatever reservations people have about him, guy knows airlines, and that is good for a change......*cough* Leo *cough*.....

Originally Posted by Gearjerk

Lastly, the answer to your question. "YES," we would still have FAR117, whether or not the accident (Colgan 3407) had happened like it did. Do you remember what happened a only one month prior to the Colgan accident? Do an internet research of Airbus landing in the Hudson river, in January 2009. (Ring a bell?)

Originally Posted by GogglesPisano

Speaking of CNO has anyone else not been getting notified of delayed departures? Calling Accommodations (and being put on hold) to delay pick-up is getting old.