On two occasions I've seen airplanes lose GPS nav and revert to either IRS (over water) or DME/DME in the case of one small jet I was in.. GPS is not 100% reliable.

 

Right here and right now I am not flying for a regional or major airline however I have flown for a regional and LCC in the past.

What I was referring to is in regards to newly trained instrument pilots. In that capacity I am currently instructing new instrument pilots right here and right now. In that regard their training is different than what pilots went through 20 years ago.

My guess is that you are referring to current training at the regionals and if that is the case my guess is that I have been through initial regional training more recently than you.

Skyhigh

 

Sky said he had no way of blocking the glass to train partial (non glass) panel, I offered two suggestion how he could. He then went on to say he had never been taught how to use and E6B. I gave him a site that could teach him. Finally, he said he never learned stellar navigation. I offered him emergency stellar navigation information. I think those are good additions to the PTS.

My real concern was that he seems to lack the initiative or imagination to teach anything out of the ordinary or beyond what his instructor had taught him.

Funny, but when I got my private I learned crazy things called pilotage and dead reckoning. While not nearly as accurate as a GPS, they can still get on in the ballpark. If this guy were to lose all electrics, he could still use those forms of navigation..... assuming he had charts and positional awareness. Heck, if he carried a hand held radio, he could even get close enough to a class C airport to get a no gyro approach.

And as for the standard rate turn, next time you take him up, why not make note of the bank angle of a standard rate turn (if I remember correctly, it is about 15 degrees at 120 kias). Again, bank angle is not as accurate, but it is pretty close.

I guess I just like to teach there is no unresolvable problem. When things fail, go to your backups. When they fail, try something else. Either that, or just put a plastic Jesus on your dash and hope for the best.

 

I guess that you and I are just trying to make different points.

Your point: There are things that can be done with only a handful of instruments and no navigational information. Yea, I get it.

My point: Aircraft manufacturers are placing all their faith into the flat screens.

My aim is not to discuss the details of flight instruction but to explore the direction that aviation is taking.

If you really want to exchange instruction ideas then we could. There is a sticker kit that is specially designed to cover parts of the glass panel to simulate partial failures of your avionics.

Where should an instructor put the focus of training? In a glass plane the big risk comes from getting lost in the automation. Why lean antiquated skills like stellar navigation that are highly unlikely that you will ever use?

If your lighter doesn't work break out the matches. If you are out of matches you can use the cigarette lighter in your car. If that has been removed I suppose you could rub two sticks together and make fire. However, that takes a long time to learn how to do that. It is much easier just to carry an extra lighter.

SKyhigh

 

Last checkride I did, required a hand flown engine-out ILS raw data. Furthermore, 1/2 the ride was hand flown, course the plane and training mentality was definately old school.

Every ride previously has only required a hand flown engine-out ILS with the ease of the FD.

 

True, but only to a point... while "anyone" with above average intelligence can be trained to fly the "modern" airliner... it isn't just anybody that does it well when the crap hits the fan. Pushing buttons, and programming computers is fine when the weather is clear blue skies, visibility one million.... when the weather turns nasty, and equipment start failing and your back to basics again.... the folks your talking about don't have the "basics" to fall back on.

 

Everyone likes the image of the brave flight crew fighting to keep the plane aloft. The realty is that the next generation of professional pilots will not come with the "basics". I don't even think that it takes "above average intelligence" anymore. Only the ability to rote memorize procedures.

If a problem happens modern crews will faithfully run through all the checklists, call MX control if they can and then ride it in if that does not solve the problem. Improvements in safety are hard to prove. Why should an airline justify paying more to hire pilots with better experience when they can not prove that it helps?

Skyhigh

 

I don't know who you work for. I suppose that every company is different. However hand flying a raw data ILS in part 121 operations is becoming a thing of the past.

Skyhigh

 

Yep like I said the plane and training was old school mentality.

 

"If a problem happens modern crews will faithfully run through all the checklists, call MX control if they can and then ride it in if that does not solve the problem."

Brought to you by Skyhigh, the same guy that said:

"The FO is one pilot to many in a job that requires a half alert person to begin with."

"What is so bad with PFT? Who cares? There are short cuts all over the industry. If you can find one then there is no shame in taking"

"It takes more of a sacrifice to become professionally licensed to cut hair than it does to become an airline pilot."

and

"Regional pilots get paid what they are worth. Modern automated planes do not need experienced flight crews anymore."

Sky obviously has no respect for pilots. Why give him a shread of credibility here?

Just for the record. I routinely fly visual approaches by looking out the window, have been asked to do raw data ILS's in the sim and once during IOE, and had to do a standby power approach in the sim using instrumentation along the lines of a Cessna 172. All of this hand flown. Sky is simply misrepresenting reality.

I think Skyhigh wants to see the bar lowered in the profession to prove to himself that he made the right decision to leave the career.