Rhino Driver

I assure you, his FIRST landing was not in a 767. His first landing at DAL was in a 767 full of pax. My reference above was the pilot flying in IMC for the first time EVER was in a plane carrying pax.

Is this a serious question? Raise the standards, reduce the supply. Reduce the supply, good things start to happen on our end. I'm not saying make it impossible. But seriously, if you want this to be a respectable profession, you have to have a certain level of experience and accountability. Even an ATP for all members of the flight deck crew at a minimum would make things different today! Is even 1500 hours total time and an ATP too much to ask for in order to work as an airline pilot (FO)???

UAL T38 Phlyer

Amen, brother.

When the jet-decade matured (1960-1969), airlines had gone from adding jet long-haul (707 and DC-8) to short-haul (737 and DC-9). Everyone loved the jets: pilots, passengers, even the airlines, because jets produced a greater profit-margin (more RSMs per day; better reliabiilty, fewer weather cancellations, etc).

As I understand it, ALPA didn't want to fly anything smaller than a 737 or DC-9. They figured they could force the airlines to fly a 100-seat airplane into a market that could really only support 50-60 people per flight, and fought on contracts to keep 'small' airplanes out of their fleets.

At first, it worked. But the fuel crises of the 70s, coupled with deregulation of the 70s put a big crimp in the bottom line. So the airlines approached ALPA with a choice: start flying the small planes for small markets, or farm it out to someone else.

And that is when the Regionals exploded. We've been giving it away ever since.

I would have no problem if the smallest airplane in UAL's fleet was an RJ. So you start on an RJ...not any worse than starting on the panel of the 727. You'd work your way up, just like any fleet.

Armed with its own (much bigger) fleet of airplanes, I would hope they would use the RJs to serve small markets or explore new ones, and ultimately, grow or sustain the business.

What we do now is like cutting off our arm and cooking it so we have something to eat.

Rhino Driver

UAL T38 Phyler, Johnnyjetprop,

You both make excellent points and I agree with you. Like I said before, I don't want to make it impossible to get into the profession, I just think the standards are a little too low.

Is requiring all airline pilots to have an ATP really too much of a barrier? I know it makes it a little tougher to get into the profession, but at least you're getting that much more experience before the guy lands at an airline. Johnny, you had 1800 hours and an ATP. Was that too much?

I agree that we are the only ones who can take it back as well. I would like nothing more than to see the majors flying anything over 50 seats. Take it all for that matter. Just raise the bar and mandate higher hiring standards that attract the best possible candidates.

Onfinal

I've considered the NSL idea and have had a chance to review some union material on the idea. I doubt it would work for all the reasons previously mentioned. I also admit, it has some merit and is worth thinking about.

However, I believe the only solution to our present struggles is a stapled seniority list. You need to work (contract) for the brand on your tail. Everyone would benefit, scope restrictions would no longer be an issue. This is where the unions should be focusing their efforts. End the whipsaw! Remember Midwest!

forgot to bid

A) I'll say it again... his, the military pilots, first landing with more than 4 people was with 200+ in a 767. Thats what he told me. The CRJ guy has 50 in the same first landing event. I just thought it was amusing.

B) What FO's are you around at DAL that do not have an ATP?!? Every FO I know has an ATP including one who came from flying turboprops that didn't even require a type. Now its not a requirement and I know of one back in 1999 that didn't have one but for the most part we all do. And if you're talking about regional pilots need to have ATPs remember their SIC types should be to ATP standards. They're meeting the standards.

And the reason why some pilots were being hired with such low time is that airlines were looking at personalities as was the case with Coex when we started doing that very thing in 2001. They know their training and these modern jets make it possible for low time pilots to make it through training, now chose which pilot you want to invest the moeny in.

forgot to bid

The only problem with stapling pilots is that it cuts military pilots out or would prevent them from coming. Stapling also means you have to hire pilots you may not have wanted. When they actually apply to mainline you can say yes or no, you staple them and your stuck.

I hate to say it, in some ways the RJ world is the minor leagues in the sense that both the majors and minors are playing the exact same game and there are some guys at the minors who'd out play some at the majors right now and some that'd do just as well in time, and of course there are some majors that wouldn't hack it in the minors. All that to say, the majors should have the right to select who they want.
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UAL T38 PHYLER, you're post was spot on. However, let me say while we operate under seniority there is a merit based system in place in that its merit that allows you to get what your seniority allows you to have. Checkrides, OE, line flying and recurrents ensure that you meet the standards required of you.
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The reason why I do like the seniority lists and don't see it as anti-capitalist union thuggery is that seniority allows you to take the politics out of upgrades and movements. There is no better system to manage 12,000+ pilots paid to operate as the company mandates.

And just fwiw, one of the best corporate gigs in America was Bellsouth and if I'm not mistaken everyone started at the bottom on their corporate shuttle and Citation and worked up to the Falcon 900. Just because you flew a Falcon 900 before didn't mean you went straight into theirs.
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Sometimes I think we're a lot like CPAs. You go work for one of those big firms and you're one of many that does the same job as all of the others you build years of experience and then you go somewhere else and work for someone that pays you more to do the same job but now you get better jobs and stuff. Can you go to a bigger firm and then transfer to another? YES... but guess what corporate America has a tendency to do: "hire from within." This isn't sales, this is line work.

RJSAviator76

Ah... sorry pal, my worst enemy in the U.S. isn't necessarily the supply and demand as much as the seniority system in place. I flew for an ALPA carrier that was the first one that went bust last year. I made right around 100k pushing a 737NG between Hawaii and the West Coast, and been doing it for several years. When my airline went under, all of a sudden my skillset in the U.S. is worth the same amount as unemployment insurance. Yep... you guessed it - the seniority system.

Now... along those lines, I know of a few corporate pilots who lost their jobs in this downturn who were making mid-100's. A couple of them found other jobs in the U.S. flying the same equipment making only like 15-20k less than their old jobs. The others are looking at some overseas gigs. They're paid what they negotiate and usually that pay is based on what type of equipment they're flying as well as their experience. Yeah, occasionally you'll have some lowballers, but it's nothing like you see in the airlines.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that in corporate world, it's your choice to be the lowballer. If you want to fly in the airlines, you SHALL BECOME a lowballer because of the seniority system. If you don't want to participate in the lowballing, you're forced to look overseas.

Lab Rat

Or into another line of work. I don't believe the seniority system necessarily "screws" anyone. When one enters the profession they are (or should be) well aware of how the system works. The willingness of one to make that choice is directly related to how bad that individual wants to participate. i.e., how bad do you want to fly?

Devil's advocate. Was your 100K salary and associated schedule(s) possible because of the seniority system?

I'm not saying the seniority system is fair to all, but we tend to praise it when times are good and curse it when times are bad. It is what it is.

RJSAviator76

Lab Rat, you are correct in that people should learn all about the so-called profession before they enter it. I say so-called because true professionals do not depend on their seniority for pay raises.

My 100k salary and associated schedule were indeed possible because of the seniority system. However, let's not forget the first year where I was doing the same exact job and making less than 25k. Now... I can almost condone doing it once and chalking it up to 'apprenticeship.' But say for a 737 or 757 captain whose carrier went under, having to start over making less than 25k a year under 'apprenticeship' is cheapening ourselves even further and is a far cry from what true professionals do.

Sadly, it was the proud men that built our airline industry. Think Juan Trippe, Howard Hughes, Herb Kelleher... the men who took pride in actually building our airlines. Are there any more of these people?

Seniority was a noble idea, but with the evolvement of carpetbagger managements, we need to evolve as well. Sadly, US airline pilots seem unable to and it's at their own detriment.

Box Office

Medical doctors' pay remains high because for each person accepted to medical school they have about 50 applicants. Rather then build more schools so that all interested can attend, they choose the cream of the crop. This keeps the supply of qualified doctors at levels where they will always be in demand. I know it is not as simple as that, but preventing anybody with enough money from becoming qualified to be a pilot would help the supply and demand situation and raise pilot salary.