SWAPA beware of hubris
08-14-2009 | 10:36 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
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Alfa,
I found your post very interesting because I had similar thoughts. I thought SWA's staple of Morris pilots was not very "fair" and am disappointed that with the history of several airline mergers since then SWAPA still feels their career is so far superior to other careers that stapling the acquired carriers seniority list is appropriate.
DAL's acquisition of some of Pan Am's assets in bankruptcy court is to me analagous to the possible acquisition of Frontier by Southwest.
However DAL did not staple the Pan Am pilots but rather integrated the acquired pilots into the seniority list is a ratioed method. That strikes me as a more "fair" or "reasonable" integration methodology.
I found your post very interesting because I had similar thoughts. I thought SWA's staple of Morris pilots was not very "fair" and am disappointed that with the history of several airline mergers since then SWAPA still feels their career is so far superior to other careers that stapling the acquired carriers seniority list is appropriate.
DAL's acquisition of some of Pan Am's assets in bankruptcy court is to me analagous to the possible acquisition of Frontier by Southwest.
However DAL did not staple the Pan Am pilots but rather integrated the acquired pilots into the seniority list is a ratioed method. That strikes me as a more "fair" or "reasonable" integration methodology.
08-14-2009 | 11:40 AM
#12
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Great post Alfaromeo. As a new SWA pilot I'm a bit worried by the general "we can do no wrong" attiutde of many pilots here. I just finished reading the book "How the mighty fall" where the fall of great American companies is analyzed. The first stage is always 'Arrogance born of hubris'. It usually is displayed by management but I wonder if in the airline industry the same attitude in an employee group can have similar effects.
You mentioned Delta at the apex of its curve, I do remember United in 1998 being the airline of choice, they could do no wrong. It didn't take too long for things to change dramatically.
I hope that rejecting the TA and basically sinking the Frontier deal is not the beginning of our fall.
You mentioned Delta at the apex of its curve, I do remember United in 1998 being the airline of choice, they could do no wrong. It didn't take too long for things to change dramatically.
I hope that rejecting the TA and basically sinking the Frontier deal is not the beginning of our fall.
08-14-2009 | 01:56 PM
#13
New Hire
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
I think you guys need to read the other thread from our union president. It paints a much different picture than the perceived arrogance of SWAPA.
SWAPA made a pretty generous offer and FAPA wouldn't respond or even talk about concessions. They ignored SWAPA attempts to communicate and asked for $3,000 bucks a month for their furloughed pilots along with a $1,000/month allowance for COBRA. Oh, and they wanted 100% domicile protection forever. You cannot successfully integrate a pilot group when the pilots of one domicile are all from another company.
If there is any hubris here, it is FAPA. They obviously didn't want to work anything out with SWAPA. I think the fact that their president was on the creditors board tells me that he had his mind made up on RAH a long time ago. Instead of being straight up about it, FAPA played hide and seek with SWAPA. I believe SWAPA played fairly and all SWA guys would have welcomed F9 guys with open arms. But it seems FAPA viewed it as a toxic relationship. It wasn't meant to be. Best of luck to the Frontier guys.
SWAPA made a pretty generous offer and FAPA wouldn't respond or even talk about concessions. They ignored SWAPA attempts to communicate and asked for $3,000 bucks a month for their furloughed pilots along with a $1,000/month allowance for COBRA. Oh, and they wanted 100% domicile protection forever. You cannot successfully integrate a pilot group when the pilots of one domicile are all from another company.
If there is any hubris here, it is FAPA. They obviously didn't want to work anything out with SWAPA. I think the fact that their president was on the creditors board tells me that he had his mind made up on RAH a long time ago. Instead of being straight up about it, FAPA played hide and seek with SWAPA. I believe SWAPA played fairly and all SWA guys would have welcomed F9 guys with open arms. But it seems FAPA viewed it as a toxic relationship. It wasn't meant to be. Best of luck to the Frontier guys.
08-14-2009 | 02:48 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 712
Likes: 0
It is really quite unbelievable that SWAPA would think that a straight staple was a good deal for the Frontier pilots. (by the way, a relative seniority integration proposed by FAPA was equally outrageous). Southwest is a good company but has to adapt. That is not my theory, that is from Gary Kelly the CEO.
Right now SWAPA feels that their careers are so fabulous that just about everyone should be happy just to stand in their shadow. Look back at Delta in late 90's when they were hiring 1000 pilots in a year, had pay 40-50% above Southwest and seemed unstoppable. What a difference a few years make.
Southwest no longer enjoys a cost advantage in relation to other LCC's and even to some major carriers (like Delta now). You employees are getting older on average and they will cost more. Most of the easy markets are tapped out and Southwest can't grow like they used to. I think they are shrinking now.
I say this not to bash on Southwest or the pilots, but the arrogance shown on this board and by your union was pretty shocking. You may feel like you own the world now, but you should always be careful at buying your own hype too much. I think Gen. George Patton said it best:
"For over a thousand years Roman conquerors returning from the wars enjoyed the honor of triumph, a tumultuous parade. In the procession came trumpeteers, musicians and strange animals from conquered territories, together with carts laden with treasure and captured armaments. The conquerors rode in a triumphal chariot, the dazed prisoners walking in chains before him. Sometimes his children robed in white stood with him in the chariot or rode the trace horses. A slave stood behind the conqueror holding a golden crown and whispering in his ear a warning: that all glory is fleeting."
Right now SWAPA feels that their careers are so fabulous that just about everyone should be happy just to stand in their shadow. Look back at Delta in late 90's when they were hiring 1000 pilots in a year, had pay 40-50% above Southwest and seemed unstoppable. What a difference a few years make.
Southwest no longer enjoys a cost advantage in relation to other LCC's and even to some major carriers (like Delta now). You employees are getting older on average and they will cost more. Most of the easy markets are tapped out and Southwest can't grow like they used to. I think they are shrinking now.
I say this not to bash on Southwest or the pilots, but the arrogance shown on this board and by your union was pretty shocking. You may feel like you own the world now, but you should always be careful at buying your own hype too much. I think Gen. George Patton said it best:
"For over a thousand years Roman conquerors returning from the wars enjoyed the honor of triumph, a tumultuous parade. In the procession came trumpeteers, musicians and strange animals from conquered territories, together with carts laden with treasure and captured armaments. The conquerors rode in a triumphal chariot, the dazed prisoners walking in chains before him. Sometimes his children robed in white stood with him in the chariot or rode the trace horses. A slave stood behind the conqueror holding a golden crown and whispering in his ear a warning: that all glory is fleeting."
08-14-2009 | 03:31 PM
#16
On Reserve
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: B737 Captain
FACT: SWA's CASM is lower that all Lagacy carrier's (American, United, Continental, USAirways, Alaska, NWA pre-merger, and yes Delta, too) as well as Airtran and Frontier. JetBlue is slightly lower. Adjusted for stage length it has the lowest CASM of all of the above. Look it up.
Another example is the guy who said the Morris pilots kept their seats. Wrong.
Next time you think about posting something you don't know anything about, please don't waste everyone's time spreading lies.
08-14-2009 | 06:06 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
From: MD80
I was a lurker on these boards for a long time, but reading never ending examples of ignorance like this that has motivated me to start posting.
FACT: SWA's CASM is lower that all Lagacy carrier's (American, United, Continental, USAirways, Alaska, NWA pre-merger, and yes Delta, too) as well as Airtran and Frontier. JetBlue is slightly lower. Adjusted for stage length it has the lowest CASM of all of the above. Look it up.
Another example is the guy who said the Morris pilots kept their seats. Wrong.
Next time you think about posting something you don't know anything about, please don't waste everyone's time spreading lies.
FACT: SWA's CASM is lower that all Lagacy carrier's (American, United, Continental, USAirways, Alaska, NWA pre-merger, and yes Delta, too) as well as Airtran and Frontier. JetBlue is slightly lower. Adjusted for stage length it has the lowest CASM of all of the above. Look it up.
Another example is the guy who said the Morris pilots kept their seats. Wrong.
Next time you think about posting something you don't know anything about, please don't waste everyone's time spreading lies.
All in all, it shows that the SWA pilots are as good as the AA nAAtives.
X
08-14-2009 | 07:22 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Likes: 0
The Pan Am pilots got ratioed in starting at number 602 (our most senior 767ER Captain) with their 21 somewhat comparable A-310's. They also brought a few 727. The folks at the bottom were 727 SO's (different union class and craft), many of whom did not have pilot bid rights. PAA brought 782 airmen to the acquisition, and they got integrated on about a 1-11 ratio with original Delta. The acquisition closed in November. No PAA airman was junior to a Delta pilot hired after the closing date.
08-14-2009 | 07:47 PM
#20
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
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From: Poodle Whisperer
The Pan Am pilots got ratioed in starting at number 602 (our most senior 767ER Captain) with their 21 somewhat comparable A-310's. They also brought a few 727. The folks at the bottom were 727 SO's (different union class and craft), many of whom did not have pilot bid rights. PAA brought 782 airmen to the acquisition, and they got integrated on about a 1-11 ratio with original Delta. The acquisition closed in November. No PAA airman was junior to a Delta pilot hired after the closing date.
PaNDa's! (Pan Am/National/Delta) I sure do like flying with those guys.
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