What to look forward to?
11-15-2009, 05:48 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Originally Posted by de727ups
"
When I was active at Jetcareers, I constantly attacked the easy ways into the career via the All ATP's, the Riddles, the Delta connection academies, the Gulfstreams, and the TAB expresses. Places that promise shortcuts for a high price. .
When I was active at Jetcareers, I constantly attacked the easy ways into the career via the All ATP's, the Riddles, the Delta connection academies, the Gulfstreams, and the TAB expresses. Places that promise shortcuts for a high price. .
I agree with most of what you are saying. But, I wouldn't exactly say thay Riddle promises shortcuts for a high price. Easy way into the career? No. High price? Yes. Shortcut? No. Unless I missed that class.
New K Now
11-15-2009, 06:05 PM
#22
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by Joachim
If flying an airplane can make you throw everything else out the window then your'e a moron!
I don't think anyone here has said you have to throw everything away for this career. It's only been said that it has it challenges, just as every career has, and that you should be aware of them and prepared. If you are not willing to deal with the challenges, then yes, you should try something else.
Last edited by 72944; 11-16-2009 at 04:42 AM.
11-15-2009, 06:23 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Position: Hotel
Posts: 714
It is natural human behavior to justify one's chosen path. Skyhigh's posts, even those reposted by de757ups still ring mostly true unless one chooses not to believe them.
And ups' posts make good sense too. However, they are from the viewpoint of one who made it through - largely due to luck.
Perhaps the truth lies in the middle.
I've got a good SWA captain friend who I've known for years. Got into flying around age 30 after working for Black and Decker for a number of years in a non flying job. Basically got ratings, flew in England for a while primarily in the corporate world, then got on with SWA during the ramp up period (right place/right time) and is topping 200k now.
My attempt led to furlough after 18 months on the job with no hope of funding my family for the next many years. He'll be the first to tell me (and has done so) that one's ultimate fate is heavily weighted in the luck department.
And ups' posts make good sense too. However, they are from the viewpoint of one who made it through - largely due to luck.
Perhaps the truth lies in the middle.
I've got a good SWA captain friend who I've known for years. Got into flying around age 30 after working for Black and Decker for a number of years in a non flying job. Basically got ratings, flew in England for a while primarily in the corporate world, then got on with SWA during the ramp up period (right place/right time) and is topping 200k now.
My attempt led to furlough after 18 months on the job with no hope of funding my family for the next many years. He'll be the first to tell me (and has done so) that one's ultimate fate is heavily weighted in the luck department.
11-15-2009, 06:39 PM
#25
Moderate Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
What I WISH the Future Held
Don't know what's in store, but I wish:
1. Major carriers had a full arsenal of airplanes to meet market demand. Big jets for big markets, small jets for new markets, and turboprops for small markets. Regionals/Feeders wouldn't exist.
2. Companies and Unions would meet and say "We want to make money, and we want you to make money"....and would work collectively to make it so, instead of fighting each other.
3. Some re-regulation of the market. Don't give an operating certificate to every entrant just because they can complete the paperwork. Show that they are adding previously unseen service, or competition...but the FAA (or CAB, for those who remember) would keep the total number of ASMs reasonable to ensure at least break-even for operators, and a fair price for consumers.
4. Regulation of Fares. No tickets below expected operating cost.
5. Simplification of Fares. No Wallet-gouging because you have to buy a ticket last-minute for a dying relative. How can a one-way ticket cost twice what a round-trip costs? Would you buy groceries this way? A house? A car? Everytime I buy a ticket, I feel like I'm playing 'Wheel of Fortune".....
Anyway, that's what I would like. But I don't think it will happen.
1. Major carriers had a full arsenal of airplanes to meet market demand. Big jets for big markets, small jets for new markets, and turboprops for small markets. Regionals/Feeders wouldn't exist.
2. Companies and Unions would meet and say "We want to make money, and we want you to make money"....and would work collectively to make it so, instead of fighting each other.
3. Some re-regulation of the market. Don't give an operating certificate to every entrant just because they can complete the paperwork. Show that they are adding previously unseen service, or competition...but the FAA (or CAB, for those who remember) would keep the total number of ASMs reasonable to ensure at least break-even for operators, and a fair price for consumers.
4. Regulation of Fares. No tickets below expected operating cost.
5. Simplification of Fares. No Wallet-gouging because you have to buy a ticket last-minute for a dying relative. How can a one-way ticket cost twice what a round-trip costs? Would you buy groceries this way? A house? A car? Everytime I buy a ticket, I feel like I'm playing 'Wheel of Fortune".....
Anyway, that's what I would like. But I don't think it will happen.
11-15-2009, 06:52 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 168
Making $100k as a regional captain is great. It's the 10-15 years of student loans and being an fo living on oatmeal doing 4 day trips that sucks.
I dare anyone to look up how much flight training costs now. I guarantee you'll be shocked. If you're creative and willing to have it take 10 years, $40k might do it. Otherwise good luck coming in under $100k.
As has been said, I got into this job for pay and QOL. Financially it has not paid off. QOL is marginal. Did I make the right decision? Do I have any spare $ or time to pursue something else, no. Look we all love flying, but we need to make a respectable wage also. I shouldn't be responsible for peoples lives then come home and envy the lifestyle of my neighbor the cabinet maker.
I dare anyone to look up how much flight training costs now. I guarantee you'll be shocked. If you're creative and willing to have it take 10 years, $40k might do it. Otherwise good luck coming in under $100k.
As has been said, I got into this job for pay and QOL. Financially it has not paid off. QOL is marginal. Did I make the right decision? Do I have any spare $ or time to pursue something else, no. Look we all love flying, but we need to make a respectable wage also. I shouldn't be responsible for peoples lives then come home and envy the lifestyle of my neighbor the cabinet maker.
11-15-2009, 06:55 PM
#27
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
Occasionally I've had access to a pretty good crystal ball. Here's a few predictions:
The "sweet spot" in the domestic market is going to move from 70 to 100 seats to 130 to 150 seats. Barring changes in scope, this will make growth opportunities as outsourced flying return to mainline aircraft. The perfect platform for this flying has not been built yet. The AirBus and Boeing products are too heavy and too capable (expensive) for this market.
Age 65 retirements are right around the corner. The hiring wave in 2013 to 2014 will be substantial and will continue for a while.
Profitability will remain illusive for our employers. Government will fail to come through on airspace modernization and will seek to penalize aviation as they see carbon taxes as a way to raise revenue and look good at the same time. Terrorism, fuel prices and contagion will continue to be difficult to plan for risk factors.
Due to the lack of profitability fleet renewal among the more established airlines will be slower than it needs to be. It will be difficult to finance the aircraft needed to remain leaders in the international marketplace.
Labor will continue to face threats from alter ego low wage competition. Multi crew licensing and alien ab - initio programs will supply the marketplace reasonably well. The supply of General Aviation and Military pilots will dry up. General Aviation itself is dying and it's death will also reduce the interest in corporate aviation except for the very high end.
There will be some small market resurgence for turboprop flying. The efficiency and capability of these platforms simply make so much better sense for a lot of the RJ flying being performed today.
Airline wages will increase, but will trend with, or trail real inflation. ( even FedEx and UPS pilots make substantially less than they used to as inflation has reduced their real earnings ).
The "sweet spot" in the domestic market is going to move from 70 to 100 seats to 130 to 150 seats. Barring changes in scope, this will make growth opportunities as outsourced flying return to mainline aircraft. The perfect platform for this flying has not been built yet. The AirBus and Boeing products are too heavy and too capable (expensive) for this market.
Age 65 retirements are right around the corner. The hiring wave in 2013 to 2014 will be substantial and will continue for a while.
Profitability will remain illusive for our employers. Government will fail to come through on airspace modernization and will seek to penalize aviation as they see carbon taxes as a way to raise revenue and look good at the same time. Terrorism, fuel prices and contagion will continue to be difficult to plan for risk factors.
Due to the lack of profitability fleet renewal among the more established airlines will be slower than it needs to be. It will be difficult to finance the aircraft needed to remain leaders in the international marketplace.
Labor will continue to face threats from alter ego low wage competition. Multi crew licensing and alien ab - initio programs will supply the marketplace reasonably well. The supply of General Aviation and Military pilots will dry up. General Aviation itself is dying and it's death will also reduce the interest in corporate aviation except for the very high end.
There will be some small market resurgence for turboprop flying. The efficiency and capability of these platforms simply make so much better sense for a lot of the RJ flying being performed today.
Airline wages will increase, but will trend with, or trail real inflation. ( even FedEx and UPS pilots make substantially less than they used to as inflation has reduced their real earnings ).
11-15-2009, 07:35 PM
#28
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Shortcuts
Originally Posted by de727ups
When I was active at Jetcareers, I constantly attacked the easy ways into the career via the All ATP's, the Riddles, the Delta connection academies, the Gulfstreams, and the TAB expresses. Places that promise shortcuts for a high price. It's not worth it. You can't appreciate each step on the way up unless you pay your dues at that step and move on. The moving on has admittedly been hindered recently, but it's ALWAYS been a cyclical biz. I submit that those who persevere through this downturn ready to move up will be the ones who come on here and defend the career as I'm trying to do. No problem with those who walk for their own good reasons. Just don't push those reasons on everyone else cause not all are in your shoes.
My main issue is that I believe that most who enter the profession have the same overall needs and expectation as I do. They need to make enough to justify the sacrifices it takes to get there and the continuing sacrifices it takes to remain in the profession. In addition they also need access to a decent quality of life.
I do not believe that those needs are commonly able to be met as a pilot anymore. You mentioned that each of us are different and we are. I have a wife and family to think about. If I can not insure the ability to provide for them financially and the ability to build a decent lifestyle then I can not pursue aviation as a career. I reached a place in my career where the only place I could go was back to 18K per year.
I choose my family over the crummy opportunities aviation afforded me. I paid my dues. How many times is a pilot supposed to get furloughed before it is time to try something else? There just is not enough room at the top for everyone and to me I would rather work as a mailman over being gone 398 hours a month like I was at Horizon. That is no life and no way to live.
Skyhigh
11-15-2009, 07:40 PM
#29
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
All ATP's expensive? I think I paid less than $2,000 for an initial commercial / multi / instrument /Commercial & ATP written.
Yeah, if you do the entire career training it IS expensive. But if you fly independently and just use them to sharp shoot the rating, it is cheap, fast and effective.
I've always been suspicious of the programs that have a flight instructor in the airplane and it seems like 4 people are all logging flight time in a light twin. I'm even more suspicious of folks logging sim time. But, it is easy to side step those wastes of time and money if the guy is motivated and willing to spend some time networking with other pilots at their local airport. I've let several pilots fly & log some time in my airplanes over the years, just paying back the many that helped me fill in those precious first 1200 hours.
Yeah, if you do the entire career training it IS expensive. But if you fly independently and just use them to sharp shoot the rating, it is cheap, fast and effective.
I've always been suspicious of the programs that have a flight instructor in the airplane and it seems like 4 people are all logging flight time in a light twin. I'm even more suspicious of folks logging sim time. But, it is easy to side step those wastes of time and money if the guy is motivated and willing to spend some time networking with other pilots at their local airport. I've let several pilots fly & log some time in my airplanes over the years, just paying back the many that helped me fill in those precious first 1200 hours.
11-15-2009, 07:50 PM
#30
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Shoes
Originally Posted by de727ups
"So if you can make $45,000 as a teacher with full benefits, a normal schedule, and with no medical exam or FAA to worry about putting you out of business, then to fly you would have to pay me $90,000."
It depends. If you want to be a teacher rather than a pilot, than knock yerself out. I know teaching jobs they couldn't pay me 200K to do. Others I'd almost do for nothing based on my personal outlook on what's important in life.
But that's just me.
I know of 45K 135 freight jobs where all you need to do is show up, fly to a little town, sit all day, fly back to your base, and repeat 20 days a month. If you live at either end, you're home every day, and you only spend an honest 4 hours on duty per duty day. I could see it being a much better deal for 45K than teaching for the same amount. Teachers do get the summer off, which is a bonus, but being a good teacher is way more than an 8 to 5 job. And 8 to 5 is way more hours than the 135 freight job I'm thinking of. The guy doing the job I'm thinking of actually had a second job during his time in the small town rather than sitting around.
I throw out the Skyhigh quotes cause readers should see his posting history. Myself, I've never been able to get past his outrageous side to see through to the good stuff. That's just me. YMMV...
It depends. If you want to be a teacher rather than a pilot, than knock yerself out. I know teaching jobs they couldn't pay me 200K to do. Others I'd almost do for nothing based on my personal outlook on what's important in life.
But that's just me.
I know of 45K 135 freight jobs where all you need to do is show up, fly to a little town, sit all day, fly back to your base, and repeat 20 days a month. If you live at either end, you're home every day, and you only spend an honest 4 hours on duty per duty day. I could see it being a much better deal for 45K than teaching for the same amount. Teachers do get the summer off, which is a bonus, but being a good teacher is way more than an 8 to 5 job. And 8 to 5 is way more hours than the 135 freight job I'm thinking of. The guy doing the job I'm thinking of actually had a second job during his time in the small town rather than sitting around.
I throw out the Skyhigh quotes cause readers should see his posting history. Myself, I've never been able to get past his outrageous side to see through to the good stuff. That's just me. YMMV...
Have you ever considered that perhaps your needs do not match what most others here and in aviation have? How can you relate to the hardships that a family person has?
It is no fun to be gone more than half the time when you have small children at home while making slave wages. It isn't worth it either.
Skyhigh
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