And a few 737-300's still hanging around. At least CAL has 2 retirements in 2010.

 

Yes, as said they are the last of the ATA planes. CAL wouldn't take them at the previous price. Now boeing offered a better deal. CAL does well with them and their 222 seats.

 

"Apples v Oranges"

The topic of picking up OT is completely different when you have pilots on the street, versus an airline who does not. Weren't all of DAL's once furloughed offered their recall (regardless if they took it or not - some still out on their own choice of by-pass)??? Not so much at CAL.....not one of the 147 has been offered the 'sentence of reinstatement'.

When your staff is 'all in', call OT what you want.....when you still have pilots on the street, and other active pilots see fit to pick up OT.....that's just dead wrong/black-n-white without justification.

Sorry for the drift....

 

I went from a line holder to reserve 737 FO EWR a couple months ago, so I watch open time a lot. As much as I hate the scabs and the captains picking up open time it is not just them. I watch as trips get picked up by B# guys, C#guys, 85# guys, and yes even M# guys who got furlough notices the last time around. One thing I have learned is pilots are out for themselves. Is there anything wrong with that, that is debatable.

Everyone walks around blaming the scabs at CAL when it is every part of the seniority group. It is very disappointing, but it is how it is.

I don't pickup open time and I don't work on my days off. I am hoping all of the 147 will be back soon and we won't be adding to it after the dreaded summer season.

 

Not really apples/oranges, but I completely understand what you are saying. I don't know what the deal is at CAL, but at DAL, if a trip is in open time, and no one takes it, it is inverse assigned... and it goes out at premium pay. This argument has been around this maypole ad nauseum at DAL, and I still maintain that unless ALL pilots are "penalized" for taking those trips... at least NOT REWARDED with premium pay, there is a propensity to dump on the senior guys for exercising those same contractual rights. It is a highly charged emotional issue. IF... there is empirical proof that senior guys taking those trips keep guys out on the street, I'm with you. You would need to show a lot of cancelled flights due to crew staffing. BUT... since this argument is mostly if not exclusively conjecture, I side with those exercising contractual rights. That includes those junior in each and every category that answer the phone to take those trips at assignment pay. Maybe.. what needs to happen is that when guys are furloughed.. NONE.. ZERO.. NUNCA... NOT ONE single trip is paid at anything other than straight pay.

 

LOL...here's an education on how it is at CAL: If a trip is in open time and no one takes it (including in the reserve aggressive pickup window), it is inverse assigned AT STRAIGHT REGULAR OLD PAY RATE. Premium pay??? Now that's funny. I needed a good laugh today.

However, I believe if I heard correctly our union's proposal to the company in this area regarding trip assignment is based closely on what is in the DAL contract. Until then we have the FAR book with a contract cover on it in all regards.

We already have that here, but guys are still willing to wh**e themselves out for even a few lousy bucks. What NEEDS to happen is a flat out ban on open-time pickup during a furlough. No selling back of vacations, no flying through vacations. NONE..ZERO..NUNCA..NOT ONE single trip.

 

TS,

It may seem like conjecture to you, but if I am guessing correctly it has been financially/emotionally harmful to those who are currently on furlough. To them it is a reality when someone "exercising their contractual rights" picks up open time while they are on the street. Please don't tell me you are one of those that thinks a furlough is all part of career development and builds character and all that.

We have a few who think that way at SWA but they will always be overruled.
Our numbers indicate we are overmanned by 250+ but management and every pilot that I have talked to recently would do what ever is necessary to keep all 250 on property until things turn around. I like to prefer to the current overmanning situation as preloaded.

The Oscar

 

"EWR".....good explanation for TSquare.

It "really is" Apples v Oranges....That simple.

Either you DO have guys on Furlough (CAL), or you DON'T (DAL) have guys on Furlough. When looking at the topic of flying outside of your awarded line, it's "Apples v Oranges".....wrong to fly OT/Open Time when there are guys/gals on the street who could be 'staffing' those trips who would otherwise be on 'reserve' if they were on property.....in CAL's case, we are talking about 147 pilots!!

Two different Airlines, two different Furlough vs Non-Furlough cases, two different concepts of staffing Open Trips under different CBA's......In doubt, refer to the analogy above.....outside of it being black-n-white, nauseum we can agree upon.

One thing is for certain (as someone alluded earlier), pilots are self-serving. It makes my sick to see the "All for one, one for all" mantra is straight out the window at CAL on this topic. Having been part of organized labor (ALPA in this case) for 15+ years, at times like this I seem to have more faith in "Pixie Dust & the Tooth Fairy".

Sad indeed.

 

Well I have no dog in this hunt... but personally I am of the opinion that picking up open time while guys/gals are on furlough is just wrong. To me it the old axiom... "just because you CAN....does not mean you SHOULD"....

Now... if then entire seniority list is on property and working... do what ever floats your boat.

 

As to furlough being a part of the character building process... uh.. no. It sucks. My point about conjecture is that of whether or not guys picking up time adds to the continuation of the furloughs. But a furlough hurts everybody, not just those on furlough. I sat sideways for almost 6 years when we had guys furloughed at DAL back in the early 90s. I know.. I can hear you... "but at least you were still flying". My point is that BECAUSE of the economic times and the fact that I was unable to bid up from there, I lost lots of potential income too. I'm not asking that anybody shed any tears, I'm just saying that the knife cuts pretty deep, and not just downward. But I digress... As I said earlier, I had no clue as to how things work at CAL, and I appreciate the lesson. And as I said... this is an emotionally charged issue.. There is no empiracle evidence that guys picking up time keeps furloughs on the street. Think about it for a minute. If you were management.. would you;
A) Keep just enough guys on the roster so that you can cover the schedule... within the boundaries of the contract? Think economy before you answer this one...
B) Keep guys furloughed and torpedo your revenue stream just to spite an employee group?

If guys don't pick up time and they start cancelling flights you might have a point. But I will still fall back on the feeling that if you tell guys what/when they can start picking up flying, you are starting down a slippery slope. What is next? I guess you can still sell back vacation at CAL. We got rid of that a long time ago at DAL. That drove me crazy when I would see guys selling back their vacation when there was no upward movement. But in retrospect, it would have been wrong to have told them they couldn't do it becaause it was a part of their contract to do so.

I'll bow out of this discussion, because as I said, I don't have a horse in this race either, but unless something is in your contract, or has been agreed to by ALL of the players involved, tread carefully....

However it works out, I wish you all the best.