What's the "Latest and Greatest" at UAL/CAL?
05-02-2010, 05:09 PM
#71
seeing the large hubs...
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 73N A
Posts: 3,706
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
I don't have either CAL's or UAL's contract to read, but I am sure they are close to DAL's and NWA's. Both of our contracts allowed management to merge without any pilot approval. In fact before the DAL/NWA deal, no labor group ever was involved up front. What happens is that management has a certain amount of time to operate separate carriers. During that time, the seniority lists will be merged according to ALPA merger policy and then a joint contract will have to negotiated. I imagine that each contract has some protection against loss of flying while in separate operations.
So the bottom line is that pilots do not have a veto over the deal. In the DAL/NWA case, the Delta MEC made the case to the Delta board of directors that we could add value to the corporation by speeding up the integration process and working together rather than fighting each other. In exchange, we got contract value and stock. This was the first time this was done and is not the norm.
So if either pilot group doesn't want to play ball, then the integration will proceed per their current contractual arrangements. You can't strike until the NMB says you can strike. That only occurs when the Section 6 process has played out. It is doubtful that the NMB would declare an impasse for either pilot group in the middle of an integration. It will be a joint contract or nothing.
So the bottom line is that pilots do not have a veto over the deal. In the DAL/NWA case, the Delta MEC made the case to the Delta board of directors that we could add value to the corporation by speeding up the integration process and working together rather than fighting each other. In exchange, we got contract value and stock. This was the first time this was done and is not the norm.
So if either pilot group doesn't want to play ball, then the integration will proceed per their current contractual arrangements. You can't strike until the NMB says you can strike. That only occurs when the Section 6 process has played out. It is doubtful that the NMB would declare an impasse for either pilot group in the middle of an integration. It will be a joint contract or nothing.
If you remember over at Delta when USAir was trying to buy them - they helped management fight off that takeover. I can imagine that if a union came into a merger meeting and said, "we don't want the merger and we're going to do everything we can to stop it" people would pay attention.
Shoot - I think CAL did just that back in 1998 when they were thinking of mergering with Northwest (I think it was them). As I heard it (I was at COEX at the time) the head of the IACP found out where the confidential meetings were being held in NYC and walked in, said "the pilots aren't going to support this" - and it helped torpedo the deal.
So - while there isn't a contractual right as to stopping a merger, I don't think a merger will work without them.
The Family Tree
05-02-2010, 09:43 PM
#75
Not retiring avatar
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Position: 777 CAP
Posts: 768
The Family Tree
For those interested in a little Airline History...
UAL considers its birthdate May 12, 1926 with National Air Transport;
Chicago to Dallas in a Curtiss Biplane.
You can see the 4 original airlines represented by 4 stars on the pilot's
hat device.
A much abbreviated family tree timeline:
(1920's)Varney Air Lines|National Air Transport|Boeing Air Transport|Pacific Air Transport
Info from Geo. W. Clearley's UNITED, The Main Line Airway
UAL considers its birthdate May 12, 1926 with National Air Transport;
Chicago to Dallas in a Curtiss Biplane.
You can see the 4 original airlines represented by 4 stars on the pilot's
hat device.
A much abbreviated family tree timeline:
(1920's)Varney Air Lines|National Air Transport|Boeing Air Transport|Pacific Air Transport
- Varney Air Lines part of United(1930)
- Varney Air Service splits off(1931) becomes Continental Airlines(1937)
- United Air Lines, Inc.(1934)
- Capital Airlines merger(1961)
- Pan Am-Pacific(1986)
- Pan Am-LHR,MIA(1991)
Continental (re)merger (2010?)
- United Air Lines, Inc.(1934)
Info from Geo. W. Clearley's UNITED, The Main Line Airway
05-03-2010, 09:46 AM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: A320/A319/B737 Sys Acft Maint Controller
Posts: 303
Originally Posted by Ottopilot
There is about 15% overlap that could be cut meaning about 1500 pilot jobs lost (plus the 1500 already on the street), but you can keep dreaming. See you in the unemployment line. 
Jeez Guys!
There are13 overlapping routes. 13 !! Where do you get to expect MASSIVE LAYOFFS?!?!? Depending on their age I can see only ONE fleet that has a REMOTE possibility of getting cut and those are the 737-500's.. Route planning will be shook up for SURE because they have to realign the 26 747-422's, the 52 777's the 35 767-300's as CAL has 767-200's and the 757's because there will be 200's and 300's In UAL's plan the 787's are to replace the 767's. I don't know How it will work now. but
fleet replacement might very well become fleet expansion. Depending n how long DAL flies the NW 747-451's. I'll bet as long as they fly them? We'll fly them and keep the wide body ratio like we've always done it.
I can't see changing the mix at this point because that's what put the merger in place in the FIRST PLACE in my opinion. I can't even see downsizing anymore unless it's on the narrowbody side. I can see a LOT of regional flying heading out the door. I just don't believe the regional flying will be as necessary going forward.And, other than XJT and SKW? I can easily see them going away PDQ !! (as the contracts come due..)
05-03-2010, 10:30 AM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: G550 Captain
Posts: 1,206
Originally Posted by strfyr51
************************************************** *******
Jeez Guys!
There are13 overlapping routes. 13 !! Where do you get to expect MASSIVE LAYOFFS?!?!? Depending on their age I can see only ONE fleet that has a REMOTE possibility of getting cut and those are the 737-500's.. Route planning will be shook up for SURE because they have to realign the 26 747-422's, the 52 777's the 35 767-300's as CAL has 767-200's and the 757's because there will be 200's and 300's In UAL's plan the 787's are to replace the 767's. I don't know How it will work now. but
fleet replacement might very well become fleet expansion. Depending n how long DAL flies the NW 747-451's. I'll bet as long as they fly them? We'll fly them and keep the wide body ratio like we've always done it.
I can't see changing the mix at this point because that's what put the merger in place in the FIRST PLACE in my opinion. I can't even see downsizing anymore unless it's on the narrowbody side. I can see a LOT of regional flying heading out the door. I just don't believe the regional flying will be as necessary going forward.And, other than XJT and SKW? I can easily see them going away PDQ !! (as the contracts come due..)
Jeez Guys!
There are13 overlapping routes. 13 !! Where do you get to expect MASSIVE LAYOFFS?!?!? Depending on their age I can see only ONE fleet that has a REMOTE possibility of getting cut and those are the 737-500's.. Route planning will be shook up for SURE because they have to realign the 26 747-422's, the 52 777's the 35 767-300's as CAL has 767-200's and the 757's because there will be 200's and 300's In UAL's plan the 787's are to replace the 767's. I don't know How it will work now. but
fleet replacement might very well become fleet expansion. Depending n how long DAL flies the NW 747-451's. I'll bet as long as they fly them? We'll fly them and keep the wide body ratio like we've always done it.
I can't see changing the mix at this point because that's what put the merger in place in the FIRST PLACE in my opinion. I can't even see downsizing anymore unless it's on the narrowbody side. I can see a LOT of regional flying heading out the door. I just don't believe the regional flying will be as necessary going forward.And, other than XJT and SKW? I can easily see them going away PDQ !! (as the contracts come due..)
I find it interesting that you don't think regional flying will be necessary EXCEPT for XJT and SKW. Why those two exceptions? Those 2 regionals you mentioned happened to have one of the largest fleet of 50 seat RJs which have become uneconomical for majors. SKW also does a major portion of regional flying for DAL, UAL/CAL's biggest competitor.
05-03-2010, 11:46 AM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 110
Originally Posted by strfyr51
************************************************** *******
Jeez Guys!
There are13 overlapping routes. 13 !! Where do you get to expect MASSIVE LAYOFFS?!?!? Depending on their age I can see only ONE fleet that has a REMOTE possibility of getting cut and those are the 737-500's.. Route planning will be shook up for SURE because they have to realign the 26 747-422's, the 52 777's the 35 767-300's as CAL has 767-200's and the 757's because there will be 200's and 300's In UAL's plan the 787's are to replace the 767's...
Jeez Guys!
There are13 overlapping routes. 13 !! Where do you get to expect MASSIVE LAYOFFS?!?!? Depending on their age I can see only ONE fleet that has a REMOTE possibility of getting cut and those are the 737-500's.. Route planning will be shook up for SURE because they have to realign the 26 747-422's, the 52 777's the 35 767-300's as CAL has 767-200's and the 757's because there will be 200's and 300's In UAL's plan the 787's are to replace the 767's...
Don't forget CAL has 767-400's also.
http://www.continental.com/web/en-US...010_042202.pdf
05-03-2010, 11:48 AM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 2,575
Originally Posted by strfyr51
************************************************** *******
Jeez Guys!
There are13 overlapping routes. 13 !! Where do you get to expect MASSIVE LAYOFFS?!?!? Depending on their age I can see only ONE fleet that has a REMOTE possibility of getting cut and those are the 737-500's.. Route planning will be shook up for SURE because they have to realign the 26 747-422's, the 52 777's the 35 767-300's as CAL has 767-200's and the 757's because there will be 200's and 300's In UAL's plan the 787's are to replace the 767's. I don't know How it will work now. but
fleet replacement might very well become fleet expansion. Depending n how long DAL flies the NW 747-451's. I'll bet as long as they fly them? We'll fly them and keep the wide body ratio like we've always done it.
I can't see changing the mix at this point because that's what put the merger in place in the FIRST PLACE in my opinion. I can't even see downsizing anymore unless it's on the narrowbody side. I can see a LOT of regional flying heading out the door. I just don't believe the regional flying will be as necessary going forward.And, other than XJT and SKW? I can easily see them going away PDQ !! (as the contracts come due..)
Jeez Guys!
There are13 overlapping routes. 13 !! Where do you get to expect MASSIVE LAYOFFS?!?!? Depending on their age I can see only ONE fleet that has a REMOTE possibility of getting cut and those are the 737-500's.. Route planning will be shook up for SURE because they have to realign the 26 747-422's, the 52 777's the 35 767-300's as CAL has 767-200's and the 757's because there will be 200's and 300's In UAL's plan the 787's are to replace the 767's. I don't know How it will work now. but
fleet replacement might very well become fleet expansion. Depending n how long DAL flies the NW 747-451's. I'll bet as long as they fly them? We'll fly them and keep the wide body ratio like we've always done it.
I can't see changing the mix at this point because that's what put the merger in place in the FIRST PLACE in my opinion. I can't even see downsizing anymore unless it's on the narrowbody side. I can see a LOT of regional flying heading out the door. I just don't believe the regional flying will be as necessary going forward.And, other than XJT and SKW? I can easily see them going away PDQ !! (as the contracts come due..)
Don't worry nothing has happened yet. The merger hasn't even been approved. Plans change for better or worse. We don't know until it has happend. Just remember why the companies are merging. It's been said for years. Too much capacity. Too much competition. Merge and shrink to profitability.
I don't know what is going to happen, but I know it won't be good for the pilots.
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