Logging time when acting as a Check Airman
07-10-2010 | 03:16 PM
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From: Doing what you do, for less.
Logging time when acting as a Check Airman
To those of you who are, have been, or are otherwise in the know about being a 121 line check airman... I'm curious as to what the standard ways of logging time are. The following situations are those with which I'm curious... Zero desire to log any "sketchy" time, only 100% legit time...
When (if ever) would you log PIC while acting as SIC? Does the whole... when acting as an instructor, you may log PIC even if not PIC thing from back in the CFI days... apply?
When (if ever) would you log "dual instruction given"? Only on OE? When acting as an LCA (OE or line check) from a crewmember station? When acting as an LCA in any fashion, even if from the jumpseat? If dual given is logged, do you record dual received for the candidate or do airline training records suffice?
Now a real wolrd example: You've given a line check to a qualified and acting PIC. You're sitting right seat and acting as SIC. You've decided to log this time as dual given and SIC. Airlineapps, on the otherhand, asks for PIC, SIC, and Instructor. It then adds your instructor and PIC time together to get total PIC. This results the SIC time for this being counted by airlineapps as PIC time. How would you handle this?
Thanks for the advice all!
When (if ever) would you log PIC while acting as SIC? Does the whole... when acting as an instructor, you may log PIC even if not PIC thing from back in the CFI days... apply?
When (if ever) would you log "dual instruction given"? Only on OE? When acting as an LCA (OE or line check) from a crewmember station? When acting as an LCA in any fashion, even if from the jumpseat? If dual given is logged, do you record dual received for the candidate or do airline training records suffice?
Now a real wolrd example: You've given a line check to a qualified and acting PIC. You're sitting right seat and acting as SIC. You've decided to log this time as dual given and SIC. Airlineapps, on the otherhand, asks for PIC, SIC, and Instructor. It then adds your instructor and PIC time together to get total PIC. This results the SIC time for this being counted by airlineapps as PIC time. How would you handle this?
Thanks for the advice all!
Last edited by lolwut; 07-10-2010 at 04:03 PM.
07-10-2010 | 03:20 PM
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From: A-320A
Simple, if you are doing IOE for a Capt until his line check you are the PIC. A Stan ride does not have you logging pic and any FO is PIC.
SOE, is not PIC if giving it to another capt as he is the one signing the release.
Real simple. You sign for the jet, you are the PIC.
SOE, is not PIC if giving it to another capt as he is the one signing the release.
Real simple. You sign for the jet, you are the PIC.
07-10-2010 | 03:29 PM
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From: Doing what you do, for less.
I suppose the source of my confusion is that there are situations in which you would log dual given and SIC. But, dual given can then later be interpreted as PIC time.
Also, would you only log dual given for OE? What about for line checks? Or say you're in the jumpseat giving instruction for a special airport qual... you obviously can't log flight time, but would you log dual given?
When it comes down to it, airlineapps has got me confused!
Also, would you only log dual given for OE? What about for line checks? Or say you're in the jumpseat giving instruction for a special airport qual... you obviously can't log flight time, but would you log dual given?
When it comes down to it, airlineapps has got me confused!
07-10-2010 | 04:02 PM
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From: Doing what you do, for less.
So I figured I'd ask about how everyone else does it / handles the logging of check airman time. Maybe I just shouldn't be logging it as instruction time either? Theres a lot of value in keeping it simple...
07-10-2010 | 04:09 PM
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From: SLC ERB
To those of you who are, have been, or are otherwise in the know about being a 121 line check airman... I'm curious as to what the standard ways of logging time are. The following situations are those with which I'm curious... Zero desire to log any "sketchy" time, only 100% legit time...
When (if ever) would you log PIC while acting as SIC? Does the whole... when acting as an instructor, you may log PIC even if not PIC thing from back in the CFI days... apply?
When (if ever) would you log "dual instruction given"? Only on OE? When acting as an LCA (OE or line check) from a crewmember station? When acting as an LCA in any fashion, even if from the jumpseat? If dual given is logged, do you record dual received for the candidate or do airline training records suffice?
Now a real wolrd example: You've given a line check to a qualified and acting PIC. You're sitting right seat and acting as SIC. You've decided to log this time as dual given and SIC. Airlineapps, on the otherhand, asks for PIC, SIC, and Instructor. It then adds your instructor and PIC time together to get total PIC. This results the SIC time for this OE being counted by airlineapps as PIC time. How would you handle this?
Thanks for the advice all!
When (if ever) would you log PIC while acting as SIC? Does the whole... when acting as an instructor, you may log PIC even if not PIC thing from back in the CFI days... apply?
When (if ever) would you log "dual instruction given"? Only on OE? When acting as an LCA (OE or line check) from a crewmember station? When acting as an LCA in any fashion, even if from the jumpseat? If dual given is logged, do you record dual received for the candidate or do airline training records suffice?
Now a real wolrd example: You've given a line check to a qualified and acting PIC. You're sitting right seat and acting as SIC. You've decided to log this time as dual given and SIC. Airlineapps, on the otherhand, asks for PIC, SIC, and Instructor. It then adds your instructor and PIC time together to get total PIC. This results the SIC time for this OE being counted by airlineapps as PIC time. How would you handle this?
Thanks for the advice all!
Your company (i.e. dispatch) has to designate a PIC for a particular flight - if you are not that person then you should not log PIC. Doesn't matter what seat you are in or what duties you are performing.
If you are giving OE to a captain - then by definition that captain is not yet qualified in that position, therefore you are PIC even if you are preforming the duties of the SIC. Of course, if you are giving OE, then you should be the designated PIC anyway - and the one signing the release.
LCA in 121 operations are not required to be CFI's nor are you automatically qualified to be a company instructor - why? because you are not giving dual instruction during OE (not officially though it may feel like it at times!). So I would not log time giving OE as "dual given" since you are not acting as an instructor. So to answer you senario - if you in the right seat giving a line check to a qualified captain, and that captain is designated by the company as the PIC for that flight - then you should not log it as PIC or dual given - only SIC.
If you are giving a LC from the jumpseat then you should not log that time at all.
So, to recap - if you are designated by the company as the PIC then log it as PIC. If not, then log it as SIC. If you are in the jumpseat it doesn't get logged. And none of the above counts as dual given.
Edited to add: dual instruction - that is time where you are using your CFI or instructor qualifications - is never given during 121 (or 135) revenue operations. Airline apps has it right in this case.
07-10-2010 | 04:14 PM
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From: Doing what you do, for less.
Ok, I was a 121 chief check airman and APD for a number of years so I will try to answer your questions.
Your company (i.e. dispatch) has to designate a PIC for a particular flight - if you are not that person then you should not log PIC. Doesn't matter what seat you are in or what duties you are performing.
If you are giving OE to a captain - then by definition that captain is not yet qualified in that position, therefore you are PIC even if you are preforming the duties of the SIC. Of course, if you are giving OE, then you should be the designated PIC anyway - and the one signing the release.
LCA in 121 operations are not required to be CFI's nor are you automatically qualified to be a company instructor - why? because you are not giving dual instruction during OE (not officially though it may feel like it at times!). So I would not log time giving OE as "dual given" since you are not acting as an instructor. So to answer you senario - if you in the right seat giving a line check to a qualified captain, and that captain is designated by the company as the PIC for that flight - then you should not log it as PIC or dual given - only SIC.
If you are giving a LC from the jumpseat then you should not log that time at all.
So, to recap - if you are designated by the company as the PIC then log it as PIC. If not, then log it as SIC. If you are in the jumpseat it doesn't get logged. And none of the above counts as dual given.
Edited to add: dual instruction - that is time where you are using your CFI or instructor qualifications - is never given during 121 (or 135) revenue operations.
Your company (i.e. dispatch) has to designate a PIC for a particular flight - if you are not that person then you should not log PIC. Doesn't matter what seat you are in or what duties you are performing.
If you are giving OE to a captain - then by definition that captain is not yet qualified in that position, therefore you are PIC even if you are preforming the duties of the SIC. Of course, if you are giving OE, then you should be the designated PIC anyway - and the one signing the release.
LCA in 121 operations are not required to be CFI's nor are you automatically qualified to be a company instructor - why? because you are not giving dual instruction during OE (not officially though it may feel like it at times!). So I would not log time giving OE as "dual given" since you are not acting as an instructor. So to answer you senario - if you in the right seat giving a line check to a qualified captain, and that captain is designated by the company as the PIC for that flight - then you should not log it as PIC or dual given - only SIC.
If you are giving a LC from the jumpseat then you should not log that time at all.
So, to recap - if you are designated by the company as the PIC then log it as PIC. If not, then log it as SIC. If you are in the jumpseat it doesn't get logged. And none of the above counts as dual given.
Edited to add: dual instruction - that is time where you are using your CFI or instructor qualifications - is never given during 121 (or 135) revenue operations.
07-10-2010 | 04:19 PM
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From: Skeptical
I think you need to get your mind out of the Part 61 gutter, with all its talk of “Dual Given,“ and join us up here in the world of Part 121!
When conducting any kind of OE, or when conducting Line Checks, you are not acting on the authority of you CFI cert, you are acting as an LCA under the authority granted in your authorization letter from the FAA in conjunction with your airline’s training or flight standards department. You are not Giving Dual in the sense of providing training in Aeronautical Experience as required for a Part 61 pilot certificate, you are conducting Part 121 required Initial Training, Differences Training, etc. to a pilot who has already possesses the appropriate certificates granted under Part 61. In a very real sense, you are not actually conducting training at all, but are facilitating the already certified pilot in gaining “operating experience, operating cycles, and the line operating flight time for consolidation of knowledge and skills” required by FAR 121.434.
Long story short (and this is most definitely my own method): I have never logged any time as a required crewmember when acting as LCA as Dual Given. I created a separate column titled “As LCA” for my own records and listed only Flight Time (i.e. when sitting in the left or right seat) in that column. That same time was logged as either PIC or SIC, depending on how I was listed on the Flight Release. Line checks conducted from the jumpseat are not flight time, and so are not logged at all. In this interpretation, Dual Given only applies to Aeronautical Experience required to satisfy the requirements of a Part 61 pilot rating.
YMMV.
EDIT: I was typing while Dash8widget was posting! Good to see we're on the same page!
When conducting any kind of OE, or when conducting Line Checks, you are not acting on the authority of you CFI cert, you are acting as an LCA under the authority granted in your authorization letter from the FAA in conjunction with your airline’s training or flight standards department. You are not Giving Dual in the sense of providing training in Aeronautical Experience as required for a Part 61 pilot certificate, you are conducting Part 121 required Initial Training, Differences Training, etc. to a pilot who has already possesses the appropriate certificates granted under Part 61. In a very real sense, you are not actually conducting training at all, but are facilitating the already certified pilot in gaining “operating experience, operating cycles, and the line operating flight time for consolidation of knowledge and skills” required by FAR 121.434.
Long story short (and this is most definitely my own method): I have never logged any time as a required crewmember when acting as LCA as Dual Given. I created a separate column titled “As LCA” for my own records and listed only Flight Time (i.e. when sitting in the left or right seat) in that column. That same time was logged as either PIC or SIC, depending on how I was listed on the Flight Release. Line checks conducted from the jumpseat are not flight time, and so are not logged at all. In this interpretation, Dual Given only applies to Aeronautical Experience required to satisfy the requirements of a Part 61 pilot rating.
YMMV.
EDIT: I was typing while Dash8widget was posting! Good to see we're on the same page!
07-10-2010 | 04:24 PM
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From: Doing what you do, for less.
I think you need to get your mind out of the Part 61 gutter, with all its talk of “Dual Given,“ and join us up here in the world of Part 121!
When conducting any kind of OE, or when conducting Line Checks, you are not acting on the authority of you CFI cert, you are acting as an LCA under the authority granted in your authorization letter from the FAA in conjunction with your airline’s training or flight standards department. You are not Giving Dual in the sense of providing training in Aeronautical Experience as required for a Part 61 pilot certificate, you are conducting Part 121 required Initial Training, Differences Training, etc. to a pilot who has already possesses the appropriate certificates granted under Part 61. In a very real sense, you are not actually conducting training at all, but are facilitating the already certified pilot in gaining “operating experience, operating cycles, and the line operating flight time for consolidation of knowledge and skills” required by FAR 121.434.
Long story short (and this is most definitely my own method): I have never logged any time as a required crewmember when acting as LCA as Dual Given. I created a separate column titled “As LCA” for my own records and listed only Flight Time (i.e. when sitting in the left or right seat) in that column. That same time was logged as either PIC or SIC, depending on how I was listed on the Flight Release. Line checks conducted from the jumpseat are not flight time, and so are not logged at all. In this interpretation, Dual Given only applies to Aeronautical Experience required to satisfy the requirements of a Part 61 pilot rating.
YMMV.
When conducting any kind of OE, or when conducting Line Checks, you are not acting on the authority of you CFI cert, you are acting as an LCA under the authority granted in your authorization letter from the FAA in conjunction with your airline’s training or flight standards department. You are not Giving Dual in the sense of providing training in Aeronautical Experience as required for a Part 61 pilot certificate, you are conducting Part 121 required Initial Training, Differences Training, etc. to a pilot who has already possesses the appropriate certificates granted under Part 61. In a very real sense, you are not actually conducting training at all, but are facilitating the already certified pilot in gaining “operating experience, operating cycles, and the line operating flight time for consolidation of knowledge and skills” required by FAR 121.434.
Long story short (and this is most definitely my own method): I have never logged any time as a required crewmember when acting as LCA as Dual Given. I created a separate column titled “As LCA” for my own records and listed only Flight Time (i.e. when sitting in the left or right seat) in that column. That same time was logged as either PIC or SIC, depending on how I was listed on the Flight Release. Line checks conducted from the jumpseat are not flight time, and so are not logged at all. In this interpretation, Dual Given only applies to Aeronautical Experience required to satisfy the requirements of a Part 61 pilot rating.
YMMV.
Sorry for such a convoluted set of questions. Luckily, once again K.I.S.S. prevails.
Last edited by lolwut; 07-10-2010 at 04:35 PM.
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