I know you have trouble with comprehension. You stated that UPS leads the industry in pay. It doesn't. FedEx widebody rates are higher, yet still less than Delta C2K rates.

I admit I extrapolated on your APA statement, as the only way for management to do a distress termination of a pension is in bankruptcy. So your point that APA was able to keep a fully intact pension was because AMR didn't go bankrupt. Oh, and while APA opposed it, AMR management was able to weaken funding rules for APA's fully intact pension, so it's more vulnerable than it's ever been. Not exactly a success story, especially after never achieving C2K rates and being first to the concession trough in 2003.

 

BS. Your opinion only, and another attempt to change the subject. The poster asked for someone to cite examples of independent union successes. I did. You didn't like it, and now have to obfuscate with your opinions attempting to be shown as facts.

Carl

 

Again, you and the other apologists miss the point. A poster referred to me as Carl "wildcat strike" Spackler. I said I have never once advocated a wildcat strike. That's a fact. What do you do? You tell me that I miss the point. Miss what point? What point is there to a blatant lie?

With regard to status quo, the evidence points to you being afraid of ANYTHING other than the status quo, IMO.

Carl

 

Yawn


Given your and my reps stand on the issues that seem to be the pet issues of DPA, I sure can. It may seem crazy but even under the current Administration the reps are still the ones that vote. These same guys ran on those issues and the last time I checked which was a few hrs ago, they are still thinking the same way.


Have you put up a resolution on C 20 to get the Reps on record for it? There is a resolution coming in C44 tomorrow about the clarity of the process.


Carl you do a really good job trying to win the perception battle. I give you that. No one is stating all is perfect that you have no reason to take issue with one iota of the current practices. What I am saying is that the structure of alpa has more to offer than DPA ever will.

Vote this new and improved orginization in and when they do not deliver on the "Christmas Wish List," we will be right were we are now. The only difference is that we will still have the same issues facing us today but on a broader scale since they will be ignored for at least five years. Fear, fear I know. But the fact Carl is that stomping your feet and demanding what you want will not make it so. If the RLA and NMB process was not so skewed you may have a chance, but not in this environment. The arguments need to be rational to a point and backed up with hard financial data to drive home this point. We are dealing with lawyers from all sides and irrational does not work. All it results in is getting your butt parked by the NMB. You think that DPA can change these factors go for it. I will support it if it ushers it way in because I understand what unity does for a group, but I will also expect people to have buyers remorse.

You tell me to back up my concerns and fears, and I ask the same of you. If DPA results in a superior organization I will stand corrected, but until then, I look at a website that has little direction except to know the path to desertification.

 

You asked someone to provide you a link to APA using ALPA services. I did, and you ignored it. I guess you didn't like it...

Oh, your examples weren't of successes. They weren't correct.

 

My point Carl that reform from within can happen. It seems that all of the guys that were fighting for change are taking the path of least resistance. In the end that generally is about 10-20% of the group. Even the DPA founder knows that with 50% of cards turned in they will not have enough support for a winning vote. I give him that.

 

No Carl, I am telling you why you can point to them as successful. Can't take a company making 4 billion a year in to 1113C and therefore cannot hose the pilot group. It really is not rocket science.

I talk to a ton of those guys and trust me, their grass is not greener to many of them. The only thing they have is a common enemy because they get kicking in the nuts at every turn.

 

Au Contraire Mon Frere, you have repeatedly advocated job action and work stoppages outside the scope of the RLA. You have repeatedly castigated others lack of manhood and intestinal fortitude for not advocating or initiating said action. You have repeatedly stated that you have the power to slow the operation down or stop it if you don't get what you want.

Your next response will to holler that I can't quote one post that you wrote those things. Well I've got better things to do with my time than sift through the archives and read your divisive drivel to post it. This is what you do. You parse peoples words and constantly denigrate others and their points of view and when called on it you howl with indignation. The people here who don't see that won't be convinced with any amount of quotes dredged up from the dustbin of history.

 

It's really important that you apologists keep this up. It really helps folks to make up their own minds despite your best efforts.

Right out of the management play book. Make sure you keep the employees thinking that a strike is no longer available to them - despite the clear law to the contrary.

More political weasel words from you. You're doing everything you can to make sure DPA dies before it is ever born! You even stoop to blatant lies and rumors. You're making sure you never have to stand corrected by killing this baby with the lowest form of political maneuvering.

I'm not kidding on this acl - if you had any sense of fairness and self respect, you would resign as a moderator here. You are so far across the line, I can't believe the head guys are allowing this.

Carl

 

Carl;
As I said to you there are a few good guys running for Master Chair, and I support them. I support change from with in, and do not think you need to burn the place down just for the sake of change.

If they do not win I have no idea what I or you will do. My concern is that we will be overcome by events and with this event there will probably be no going back.