Delta Pilots Association
10-27-2010, 02:06 PM
#1681
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Retired, again...
Posts: 608
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Slowplay,
You are exactly right. Close friends were part of getting ALPA on the FedEx property and from their first hand accounts, their independent union was ineffective.
I am concerned about our Rep's choices for MEC Chairman. The wrong choice could sure fuel the anti incumbent mood this fall.
The DPA isn't powered by its own agenda. The DPA gets its momentum from frustration with ALPA.
You are exactly right. Close friends were part of getting ALPA on the FedEx property and from their first hand accounts, their independent union was ineffective.
I am concerned about our Rep's choices for MEC Chairman. The wrong choice could sure fuel the anti incumbent mood this fall.
The DPA isn't powered by its own agenda. The DPA gets its momentum from frustration with ALPA.
re: your first paragraph. I was there, and you and your close friends are correct.
10-27-2010, 02:32 PM
#1682
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,839
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
The DPA isn't powered by its own agenda. The DPA gets its momentum from frustration with ALPA.
This is an insightful observation.
I am not a DPAer, but I don't see a real campaign at all. As an observer of the process, I don't really see ANY activity by the DPA other than a website with a rather loose set of abstract objectives (AKA fuzzy) and some word of mouth.
Yet despite that, we have the ALPA spinmeisters in a full angry typing frenzy trying to combat this thing, which, from what I see, doesn't even qualify as a side show. They are chasing their tail on this for what hardly qualifies as a tempest in a teapot.
Unless...someone knows something that us mere mortals are not privy to. In any event, you are absolutely correct...DALPA is losing this argument because if itself, not because of anything the DPA is doing.
Now, with that said, should the DPA crew decide to focus, maybe get a few well respected "key men", and re-tool their campaign with some very specific objectives, they COULD capitalize on the angst of the group very effectively, especially if the new MEC Chair turns out to be more of the same.
The candidates not bothering to engage the pilot group, but only focusing on the politics of the LEC, is not a great start if ALPA wishes to avoid this.
Nu
10-27-2010, 02:56 PM
#1683
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
Originally Posted by NuGuy
Heyas Bar,
This is an insightful observation.
I am not a DPAer, but I don't see a real campaign at all. As an observer of the process, I don't really see ANY activity by the DPA other than a website with a rather loose set of abstract objectives (AKA fuzzy) and some word of mouth.
Yet despite that, we have the ALPA spinmeisters in a full angry typing frenzy trying to combat this thing, which, from what I see, doesn't even qualify as a side show. They are chasing their tail on this for what hardly qualifies as a tempest in a teapot.
Unless...someone knows something that us mere mortals are not privy to. In any event, you are absolutely correct...DALPA is losing this argument because if itself, not because of anything the DPA is doing.
Now, with that said, should the DPA crew decide to focus, maybe get a few well respected "key men", and re-tool their campaign with some very specific objectives, they COULD capitalize on the angst of the group very effectively, especially if the new MEC Chair turns out to be more of the same.
The candidates not bothering to engage the pilot group, but only focusing on the politics of the LEC, is not a great start if ALPA wishes to avoid this.
Nu
This is an insightful observation.
I am not a DPAer, but I don't see a real campaign at all. As an observer of the process, I don't really see ANY activity by the DPA other than a website with a rather loose set of abstract objectives (AKA fuzzy) and some word of mouth.
Yet despite that, we have the ALPA spinmeisters in a full angry typing frenzy trying to combat this thing, which, from what I see, doesn't even qualify as a side show. They are chasing their tail on this for what hardly qualifies as a tempest in a teapot.
Unless...someone knows something that us mere mortals are not privy to. In any event, you are absolutely correct...DALPA is losing this argument because if itself, not because of anything the DPA is doing.
Now, with that said, should the DPA crew decide to focus, maybe get a few well respected "key men", and re-tool their campaign with some very specific objectives, they COULD capitalize on the angst of the group very effectively, especially if the new MEC Chair turns out to be more of the same.
The candidates not bothering to engage the pilot group, but only focusing on the politics of the LEC, is not a great start if ALPA wishes to avoid this.
Nu
10-27-2010, 03:34 PM
#1684
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Splash
I'll use your post, since it's indicative of the posts by tsquare, CapnCrunch and Carl too.
You have no clue how polling will be conducted at DPA, you just HOPE is isn't like the polling ALPA did/does. You are vilifying ALPA when I can guarantee you DPA will use the same method for constructing its negotiating priorities as ALPA does. It will not (sorry, Carl, you're clueless) publish them. Steve Dickson is a member in Good Standing, and also negotiates for the company.
The polling DPA does would show a pilot group with objectives and expectations that vary on many issues. They would have to have some method of reconciling the differences. I'd love to hear your vision of how DPA would resolve those differences, if not by the governing body.
My point is that every flaw you see in ALPA would exist in DPA. In fact, the DPA boss, and their website claim many of the ALPA volunteers would continue in their same positions. Interesting!
So what you really dislike is National?
Then frame your argument around that, and defend your claim that change is needed. All I've heard so far is anger. That's great for a hockey game, but stupid for serving a pilot group.
You have no clue how polling will be conducted at DPA, you just HOPE is isn't like the polling ALPA did/does. You are vilifying ALPA when I can guarantee you DPA will use the same method for constructing its negotiating priorities as ALPA does. It will not (sorry, Carl, you're clueless) publish them. Steve Dickson is a member in Good Standing, and also negotiates for the company.
The polling DPA does would show a pilot group with objectives and expectations that vary on many issues. They would have to have some method of reconciling the differences. I'd love to hear your vision of how DPA would resolve those differences, if not by the governing body.
My point is that every flaw you see in ALPA would exist in DPA. In fact, the DPA boss, and their website claim many of the ALPA volunteers would continue in their same positions. Interesting!
So what you really dislike is National?
Then frame your argument around that, and defend your claim that change is needed. All I've heard so far is anger. That's great for a hockey game, but stupid for serving a pilot group.
Do some homework, then come back. And when you come back, don't ask others to do your work for you.
Carl
10-27-2010, 03:42 PM
#1685
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
It better be an issue and so should a lot of other things that have yet to be firmed up or disclosed. Currently guys are signing on to an idea with no direction.
Rather than ridiculing people for "signing on to an idea with no direction", you need to ask yourself how you can possibly justify supporting ALPA when we KNOW where the direction is going.
Carl
10-27-2010, 03:44 PM
#1686
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by DAWGS
Really? Direction? DPA is a group of guys trying to get this ship turned in the right direction. Do they have all the answers...no. DPA is nothing more to me than an opportunity we all have at putting the Delta Pilot's interests at the forefront. It amazes me you continue to defend ALPA with their record just over the past couple weeks, much less years and you try to scare people by polling data?
I have the pleasure of flying with some of the brightest people in the biz here at Delta and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that these same people could run a top-notch union. I have faith in us which is why I support DPA. It is you and me without the baggage of a conflicted bloated national organization. We will be the ones to chart our own direction without outside influence.
I have the pleasure of flying with some of the brightest people in the biz here at Delta and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that these same people could run a top-notch union. I have faith in us which is why I support DPA. It is you and me without the baggage of a conflicted bloated national organization. We will be the ones to chart our own direction without outside influence.
Carl
10-27-2010, 04:14 PM
#1687
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by PCL_128
The National Mediation Board handles representational elections in airline and railroad elections. The NLRB has no involvement whatsoever in our industry.
I don't point out the lack of knowledge to make fun of you, I point it out because it's indicative of the problem in these ridiculous independent union campaigns. You have a bunch of guys leading the charge for a new independent union that will have no national expertise to assist them, and they don't have a clue about even the basics of running a union. I don't know about you, but when I need representation, I want someone who knows what he's doing, not some newbie who is trying to learn the ropes. The DPA wouldn't just be a single newbie trying to represent a pilot, it woukd be a an entire newbie organization trying to represent 12,000 pilots. For anyone who has ever had any serious involvement in running a union, it's an absurd proposition. We know it's impossible. Only the woefully inexperienced can think it's workable, let alone advisable.
You don't like some things that ALPA does? Then work to change them. Run for office. Bring a resolution to your next local council meeting. Join a committee. Do something productive. Supporting a decertification campaign is not productive.
Well, that's my point as well. How can you possibly support an organization that as of yet has no plan, no proposed structure, no nothing. They don't know how they're going to gauge pilot opinion, because they have no experience and have never had to do it before. If the DPA were to ever actually become a reality, then the new leaders would then have to scramble to figure out how to gauge pilot opinion. Guess what they would probably do? Go to the industry expert on polling, Phil Comstock, the same guy who does ALPA's polling and the polling of all of the other independent pilots unions. So, how has your polling changed? How has your union changed in this regard? It hasn't. Except that the people in the leadership getting the polling results will be inexperienced and ill-equipped to know what to do with it. Not a recipe for success.
Because it will be incapable of doing so. You can't switch from the incredible amount of resources that ALPA provides to an upstart independent union overnight and expect it to have any capability of hitting the ground running in representing 12,000 pilots. It's a crazy proposition.
I don't point out the lack of knowledge to make fun of you, I point it out because it's indicative of the problem in these ridiculous independent union campaigns. You have a bunch of guys leading the charge for a new independent union that will have no national expertise to assist them, and they don't have a clue about even the basics of running a union. I don't know about you, but when I need representation, I want someone who knows what he's doing, not some newbie who is trying to learn the ropes. The DPA wouldn't just be a single newbie trying to represent a pilot, it woukd be a an entire newbie organization trying to represent 12,000 pilots. For anyone who has ever had any serious involvement in running a union, it's an absurd proposition. We know it's impossible. Only the woefully inexperienced can think it's workable, let alone advisable.
You don't like some things that ALPA does? Then work to change them. Run for office. Bring a resolution to your next local council meeting. Join a committee. Do something productive. Supporting a decertification campaign is not productive.
Well, that's my point as well. How can you possibly support an organization that as of yet has no plan, no proposed structure, no nothing. They don't know how they're going to gauge pilot opinion, because they have no experience and have never had to do it before. If the DPA were to ever actually become a reality, then the new leaders would then have to scramble to figure out how to gauge pilot opinion. Guess what they would probably do? Go to the industry expert on polling, Phil Comstock, the same guy who does ALPA's polling and the polling of all of the other independent pilots unions. So, how has your polling changed? How has your union changed in this regard? It hasn't. Except that the people in the leadership getting the polling results will be inexperienced and ill-equipped to know what to do with it. Not a recipe for success.
Because it will be incapable of doing so. You can't switch from the incredible amount of resources that ALPA provides to an upstart independent union overnight and expect it to have any capability of hitting the ground running in representing 12,000 pilots. It's a crazy proposition.
I'm amused at your initial point however. Some guy posts a ridicule of DPA because we don't know who will control polling and surveys. I respond by saying that the first poll is the ALPA decertification vote with the NLRB watching. I made the mistake of saying NLRB instead of NMB. A line pilot with one vote makes that mistake. You want to focus on that mistake and not on the reality that this vote will most likely occur.
Nice to see you ALPA apologists continuing to focus on the "real" threats out there.
Carl
10-27-2010, 04:17 PM
#1688
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
You're signed up and are fighting hard to keep us all signed up to an organization that is incurably conflicted. An organization whose new President does not even list scope and RJ's as a threat. I support DPA because I believe there is a strong chance that I'll at least have a vote in the future direction. My opinion means nothing to ALPA.
Rather than ridiculing people for "signing on to an idea with no direction", you need to ask yourself how you can possibly justify supporting ALPA when we KNOW where the direction is going.
Carl
Rather than ridiculing people for "signing on to an idea with no direction", you need to ask yourself how you can possibly justify supporting ALPA when we KNOW where the direction is going.
Carl
My position, as I have stated numerous times that Scope is important to me. I could care less what LM wrote or did not write in his letter. This Local ALPA branch cares about it, and will be forced by majority position of the pilots to make it a priority. Everyone gets it today, from Widebody Captain to the most junior FO, scope is not exclusive to a junior pilot.
I know the direction we are going. We are going the direction we give our reps. How do I know that? Because I make sure they know my position and hound them like dogs. It is the responsibility that goes with being a pilot that cares for this group. It is what every pilot should do. It is our responsibility at a minimum to make sure we are up on the issues and then give the much needed direction to our reps.
10-27-2010, 04:20 PM
#1689
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
If only it were true. I mean that. It sounds new and exciting, and the possibilities are just so endless, it just makes me so excited....... I think PCL does a great job stating a few of the reasons why I have trepidation of an independent.
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
The idea sounds great, but the reality is that none of this will happen because of the little brush fires that will need to take the majority of your attention away from the big picture.
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
It is a lot easier and beleive it or not cheaper to fix ALPA than to start anew.
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Guess who APA uses and consults for their negotiations? Yep, ALPA.
Carl
10-27-2010, 04:24 PM
#1690
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by DAWGS
I obviously think our group is capable of much more than you and PCL think. You both think we need Papa Bear to take care of us. I don't. I think Papa is fat, bloated and is worried more about his continued existence than the health of his cubs. IMO, there is no ALPA sin which you will not forgive. Great men and women create their own destiny, they don't accept it being handed to them.
This!!
Carl
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