Delta Pilots Association
11-09-2010 | 03:35 PM
#2361
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
Carl;
Frankly you are wrong. I am willing to fight, but when I do I do not want it to be on issues that result in greater consequences. It is called looking more than one chess move down the road.
Call me what you want, but looking at a reaction to every action and then an reaction to that action is wise business no matter who you are.
Frankly you are wrong. I am willing to fight, but when I do I do not want it to be on issues that result in greater consequences. It is called looking more than one chess move down the road.
Call me what you want, but looking at a reaction to every action and then an reaction to that action is wise business no matter who you are.
11-09-2010 | 03:49 PM
#2362
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 0
From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
Carl;
Frankly you are wrong. I am willing to fight, but when I do I do not want it to be on issues that result in greater consequences. It is called looking more than one chess move down the road.
Call me what you want, but looking at a reaction to every action and then an reaction to that action is wise business no matter who you are.
Frankly you are wrong. I am willing to fight, but when I do I do not want it to be on issues that result in greater consequences. It is called looking more than one chess move down the road.
Call me what you want, but looking at a reaction to every action and then an reaction to that action is wise business no matter who you are.
That all makes sense... except for the fact that you cannot know for certain what the outcome (consequences) are of these "chess moves" you are talking about. There is an awful lot of opinion in what you write. And you make it sound like it's all a foregone conclusion. Too much faith in your own predictions can have some pretty bad consequences too.
I'd rather see us define our objective (hopefully that would be restoration of our profession) and then make sure every move we make is centered around that. A ship without a stated destination, wandering aimlessly, is not likely to get us where we want to go.
11-09-2010 | 03:58 PM
#2363
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
ACL,
That all makes sense... except for the fact that you cannot know for certain what the outcome (consequences) are of these "chess moves" you are talking about. There is an awful lot of opinion in what you write. And you make it sound like it's all a foregone conclusion. Too much faith in your own predictions can have some pretty bad consequences too.
I'd rather see us define our objective (hopefully that would be restoration of our profession) and then make sure every move we make is centered around that. A ship without a stated destination, wandering aimlessly, is not likely to get us where we want to go.
That all makes sense... except for the fact that you cannot know for certain what the outcome (consequences) are of these "chess moves" you are talking about. There is an awful lot of opinion in what you write. And you make it sound like it's all a foregone conclusion. Too much faith in your own predictions can have some pretty bad consequences too.
I'd rather see us define our objective (hopefully that would be restoration of our profession) and then make sure every move we make is centered around that. A ship without a stated destination, wandering aimlessly, is not likely to get us where we want to go.
11-09-2010 | 04:19 PM
#2364
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
ACL,
That all makes sense... except for the fact that you cannot know for certain what the outcome (consequences) are of these "chess moves" you are talking about. There is an awful lot of opinion in what you write. And you make it sound like it's all a foregone conclusion. Too much faith in your own predictions can have some pretty bad consequences too.
I'd rather see us define our objective (hopefully that would be restoration of our profession) and then make sure every move we make is centered around that. A ship without a stated destination, wandering aimlessly, is not likely to get us where we want to go.
That all makes sense... except for the fact that you cannot know for certain what the outcome (consequences) are of these "chess moves" you are talking about. There is an awful lot of opinion in what you write. And you make it sound like it's all a foregone conclusion. Too much faith in your own predictions can have some pretty bad consequences too.
I'd rather see us define our objective (hopefully that would be restoration of our profession) and then make sure every move we make is centered around that. A ship without a stated destination, wandering aimlessly, is not likely to get us where we want to go.
Everything but history is an opinion. Common now, we all know that.
11-09-2010 | 04:39 PM
#2366
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 0
From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
Scenario it out all you want (as we should). But without a clear and compelling objective, it is not likely to yield results. I don't know how to make it any clearer.
11-09-2010 | 04:53 PM
#2367
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 0
From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
This industry has always been very cyclical and unpredictable. If you look at the entire history, cumulatively it has lost more than it has made. There are huge amounts of money involved and there are many ways to allocate it. We had our portion of the allocation reduced by about HALF. Let the bean counters worry about how they're going to make that right... it should be their problem, not ours.
11-09-2010 | 05:02 PM
#2369
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 608
Likes: 0
From: Retired, again...
Carl;
Very kind of you but it is nothing of the sort. It is about being aware of your surrounding and the pool in which we are playing in. No need to help punch ourselves' in the face.
It has nothing to do with contractual gains. We are talking about supply of pilots for seats. Getting compensation commensurate with responsibility is one thing, but to artificially tighten the supply in hopes of it helping the later generally results in the artificial restraint or barrier being done away with. Better to raise the barriers but no to the point that it causes a significant change in the way things are done. There is a difference.
Also ALPA supports, as do I 1500 hrs for someone to walk in to these doors. What the cutout does and what ALPA is trying to do is give a benefit to a college degree for this profession. I know that is hard to see, but if you offer a path that requires an accredited degree and high end training then guess what people will go that way. It will over time increase the overall qualification level in the field, resulting in people that will by default demand more.
Very kind of you but it is nothing of the sort. It is about being aware of your surrounding and the pool in which we are playing in. No need to help punch ourselves' in the face.
It has nothing to do with contractual gains. We are talking about supply of pilots for seats. Getting compensation commensurate with responsibility is one thing, but to artificially tighten the supply in hopes of it helping the later generally results in the artificial restraint or barrier being done away with. Better to raise the barriers but no to the point that it causes a significant change in the way things are done. There is a difference.
Also ALPA supports, as do I 1500 hrs for someone to walk in to these doors. What the cutout does and what ALPA is trying to do is give a benefit to a college degree for this profession. I know that is hard to see, but if you offer a path that requires an accredited degree and high end training then guess what people will go that way. It will over time increase the overall qualification level in the field, resulting in people that will by default demand more.
11-09-2010 | 05:04 PM
#2370
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 963
Likes: 0
From: What day is it?
I disagree with a couple of your assessments, but on the whole would not argue with the points you make. As insinuated, this is a political issue as much if not more than a safety one. How can you tell?? over 2000 comments from virtually every organization with any interest in pilot training or hiring.
The RAA and the training industry (universities and pilot academies) are in a serious defensive position. That said, they are proposing the status quo, with added provisions. 1500 hours will kill several organizations, hence their interest in proposing reasonable (
) changes. ALPA's proposals include much of these and more and with higher flight time requirements than the industry ( don't believe me, read them yourself).
Many here are advocating 1500 hour ATP limits on entry to 121, not because they think it will make for a better entry level pilot, but because it will create a barrier to entry to the profession, with hopes it will raise income and QOL terms. As one on the inside, I see and appreciate the logic, but it is so transparent that even the FAA won't buy off on it. ALPA's proposals will raise the bar and, hopefully, create a higher caliber aviator while limiting the ability of anyone to just buy his way into the profession. Agree or disagree, There will be a need for future pilots and improving standards will help to limit supply.
The RAA and the training industry (universities and pilot academies) are in a serious defensive position. That said, they are proposing the status quo, with added provisions. 1500 hours will kill several organizations, hence their interest in proposing reasonable (
) changes. ALPA's proposals include much of these and more and with higher flight time requirements than the industry ( don't believe me, read them yourself).Many here are advocating 1500 hour ATP limits on entry to 121, not because they think it will make for a better entry level pilot, but because it will create a barrier to entry to the profession, with hopes it will raise income and QOL terms. As one on the inside, I see and appreciate the logic, but it is so transparent that even the FAA won't buy off on it. ALPA's proposals will raise the bar and, hopefully, create a higher caliber aviator while limiting the ability of anyone to just buy his way into the profession. Agree or disagree, There will be a need for future pilots and improving standards will help to limit supply.
ALPA's proposals will raise the bar and, hopefully, create a higher caliber aviator while limiting the ability of anyone to just buy his way into the profession.
With all respect, the issue is not what they have proposed in public...it's what they are doing behind the closed doors.
My perspective is a bit different. I am a product of one of those schools from many years ago. I also spent two years on the staff as an instructor and check airman. When I left for my first commuter job (that phrase ought to date me)...in a Navajo...I had over 1800 hours. And while technically proficient and had very good stick skills thanks to a very sound program, I was in no manner ready to step into a jet.
The learning curve was steep and I was fortunate to quickly move up to turboprops and later jets. I also have been seen many who came up the same way who were not anywhere near as ready as I was. I say that having had them as my First Officers in the then booming regional industry.
My late father, ex-USAF pilot and I had many discussions. While I agreed a 4 year degree was important...and for decades the argument was that "it showed perseverence."
My argument has always been that while it may show perseverence, it means nothing when the screens go blank, the weather is at minimums and #1 is shut down. You MUST have the experience and the maturity to handle the airplane.
500 hours and a four year degree doesn't do it.
As far as "killing organizations?" I'm unwilling to aprticipate in a process that reduces skill levels and safety to protect any organization. They instead should step up or step back. I'm curious what those organizations may be. Moreover, I wonder why we are equating the safety of the traveling public and our fellow employees to any organization that may not survive because we as pilots demand a higher level of safety.
Here's a slogan we could use...
"One Level of Safety"
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