Not to start a N vs S food fight, but the NWA policy (which inexplicably is still policy on this aircraft at DAL) of having to turn on airfoil ice protection anytime you have engine anti-ice on is ridiculous and impractical. Change the policy to what all the other airline operators of DC-9 series aircraft have used, and you will find that it climbs better (and holds the cabin better in the descent).

 

Hey Einstein, so you want to discuss "equalizing elements?" If you are going to bring up the possible future bankruptcy of the PBGC and social security, which has never happened, you have to acknowledge airline insolvency, which has happened multiple times recently, as part of the equation. Since they are both doomed to fail in your world, the only thing that matters is money in your pocket today. By that standard, you have to acknowledge the great good that came from a $650m note and the cash that put into the pilots retirement plans in their own name, as well as the the hundreds of millions that have come from the DC plan and 401k.

You ought to be cheering the termination of a promise of a pension in exchange for establishment of a DC plan and a $650m note. Since it is far more secure than relying on the solvency of an airlines pension plan.

I mean to be consistent, you wouldn't want to have an airline DB plan, you'd rather have cash today and a DC plan. Right?

 

DAL 88,

I have never had a problem climbing out and up to cruise using both the engine and wing anti-ice. Does the the performance take a hit? Sure. But, not to the point where it won't climb anymore. Does it have trouble holding the cabin with everything on in the descent? Sometimes. But, descend a little earlier, or learn the 6:1 from FL 350 to FL 280 at 1000-1500 fpm then 2:1 from FL 280 to altitude. No biggie. You will get used to it.

Hey. I feel like a South guy now.


Now, seriously. What specific anti-ice policies do other DC-9 operators use that you want to adopt?

 

Yeah, I don't mean any disrespect and I understand you can make it work. It's just such a tremendous waste of fuel to do it. And from my experience on the DC-9 at TWA and the MD-88 at Delta (about 10,000 hours between the two), I see absolutely no reason for our policy on the DC-9 to be so different from the way everyone else (including Delta on the 88) operates the aircraft... especially when it causes us to waste fuel.

 

I added this question late:


Now, seriously. What specific anti-ice policies do other DC-9 operators use that you want to adopt?

 

Here is one more example of how we tried to manage the downfall of the pension to squeeze out the maximum return. Our investment banker/professional negotiator (yes we do use those) structured the note so that if Delta had the cash it was much more advantageous for them to just give us cash rather than issuing bonds. This way a $650 mm "note" yielded an actual $650 mm and not $650 mm minus commissions, minus origination fees, minus, minus, minus. It was another small step but given a choice I would rather have it all rather than giving some of it away to a bank. And yes, we do employ professionals to help us negotiate, no pilot I know could have structured that clause in that fashion.

 

Thanks for the question. Unfortunately, I've gotta head out the door to go out of town. In a nutshell, the Delta MD-88 policy would work just fine. It's going to be a busy weekend for me... so it might take a couple of days to get back on this. But I'll copy/paste the MD-88 policy when I get a chance. It is exactly the same as TWA's was on the DC-9. Do you know of any other airline (besides NWA) that operates/operated DC-9's that requires/required airfoil ice protection to be on anytime engine anti-ice is on? I guess it's possible, but I've never heard of it before.

 

Lol. But Knew, I've spent two years on it, it is a POS. I've met very few 320 or 737 pilots from either side that had much good to say about Douglas products. Now if it were my first left seat position at DAL I would quickly come to peace with it. Until that day, looking forward to laughing at all the stuff it did to me and what I ultimately did to it. It is a tank, master of the slam dunk high-energy visual.

 

We have not always been required to use the airfoil ice protection anytime the engine anti-ice is on. The policy changed sometime after 1998.

DL

 

I agree... Didn't get to vote however.