Delta Pilots Association
11-23-2010 | 12:30 PM
#2891
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Likes: 0
acl,
You know, when we first we going through all this NWA/DAL merger madness, some people told us as newcomers to the scene, that Delta Air Lines was the greatest airline in the world, that Delta took care of its people and that you --soon to be "we"-- were one big happy family. I remember someone told us that the company needed us to hurry up, get along, and sign the contract, so the company could realize the huge efficiencies the merger would create; that if we did so, the company would be in a great position to succeed and therefore we would be in a great position to succeed. Just sign up now, so we can all win. Delta will appreciate it. Delta knows they took too much in bankruptcy. Delta will make up for it. Delta will take care of its people.
Not that I necessarily believed any of this, because I was brought up in an airline where you had to keep both eyes on management at all times, where you could never believe them, where you even had to fight for a measly 3% raise that was agreed upon as part of the employees literally deciding to save the company in the CEO's living room. In my 15 years here, I have seen a lot, so not too many things get my attention. But, I must admit, it is a little peculiar to see some of the same people who preached how great Delta was back then, be the same people who are telling us that Delta won't or can't acquiesce to some of our demands BEFORE we even demand them. It is especially strange to hear this talk when the company is making record profits.
In your post you said that the captains you fly with, "would love to have conditions right for a C2K restoration contract, but they are not going to hold their breath for it...." What? What you should have told them is, if the conditions aren't right, right now, they will never be right.
What I don't understand is, why not let Delta Air Lines and their management be the ones to tell us what they can and can't afford? Let them be the ones who make the calculation of if they want their 7er pilots to taxi past SWA 737 crews and envy their paychecks and lifestyles. Let them be the ones who decide if they want their pilots to continue to look to the past as being the good old days. Aren't we a large part of the reason as to why the company is doing so well? That's what we were told. I'm sure they want to continue this financial trend.
There are a lot of factors that don't appear on paper that balance sheets can't factor in and they know it. I can guarantee you that Delta would never want the morale problems to surface here that landed Doug Steenland in President Bush's office in the summer of 2007. Just as they can make a cost calculation and decide it is better to pay down the long term debt so they can achieve lower interest rates, they can make a calculation that it is better to pay their pilots to achieve better morale, less sick calls, more single engine taxing, less mx write-ups, etc. In a sense, what some of you are doing is forgiving an agreed upon interest rate we have with the company when at this point they certainly don't need it.
Personally, I don't know what is doable for the company. But, I do think they have other things to consider when and if they decide to delay negotiations besides the long term cost of inflation. They are spending a lot of money on our image as employees. They are saving a lot of money because of their image with other employee groups. Not one union vote that I know of has passed since I've been here. So, now lets see what they want to do with us. But, let's leave our interest rate the same. There is absolutely no reason to change our expectations right now and as far as Delta Air Lines should be concerned, we as pilots want now what we wanted back then. Nothing has changed since 2008, except 1.) We have done our part, 2.) Delta Air Lines is kicking butt, & 3.) the time to pay up is quickly approaching.
I say, bring it on.
New K Now
You know, when we first we going through all this NWA/DAL merger madness, some people told us as newcomers to the scene, that Delta Air Lines was the greatest airline in the world, that Delta took care of its people and that you --soon to be "we"-- were one big happy family. I remember someone told us that the company needed us to hurry up, get along, and sign the contract, so the company could realize the huge efficiencies the merger would create; that if we did so, the company would be in a great position to succeed and therefore we would be in a great position to succeed. Just sign up now, so we can all win. Delta will appreciate it. Delta knows they took too much in bankruptcy. Delta will make up for it. Delta will take care of its people.
Not that I necessarily believed any of this, because I was brought up in an airline where you had to keep both eyes on management at all times, where you could never believe them, where you even had to fight for a measly 3% raise that was agreed upon as part of the employees literally deciding to save the company in the CEO's living room. In my 15 years here, I have seen a lot, so not too many things get my attention. But, I must admit, it is a little peculiar to see some of the same people who preached how great Delta was back then, be the same people who are telling us that Delta won't or can't acquiesce to some of our demands BEFORE we even demand them. It is especially strange to hear this talk when the company is making record profits.
In your post you said that the captains you fly with, "would love to have conditions right for a C2K restoration contract, but they are not going to hold their breath for it...." What? What you should have told them is, if the conditions aren't right, right now, they will never be right.
What I don't understand is, why not let Delta Air Lines and their management be the ones to tell us what they can and can't afford? Let them be the ones who make the calculation of if they want their 7er pilots to taxi past SWA 737 crews and envy their paychecks and lifestyles. Let them be the ones who decide if they want their pilots to continue to look to the past as being the good old days. Aren't we a large part of the reason as to why the company is doing so well? That's what we were told. I'm sure they want to continue this financial trend.
There are a lot of factors that don't appear on paper that balance sheets can't factor in and they know it. I can guarantee you that Delta would never want the morale problems to surface here that landed Doug Steenland in President Bush's office in the summer of 2007. Just as they can make a cost calculation and decide it is better to pay down the long term debt so they can achieve lower interest rates, they can make a calculation that it is better to pay their pilots to achieve better morale, less sick calls, more single engine taxing, less mx write-ups, etc. In a sense, what some of you are doing is forgiving an agreed upon interest rate we have with the company when at this point they certainly don't need it.
Personally, I don't know what is doable for the company. But, I do think they have other things to consider when and if they decide to delay negotiations besides the long term cost of inflation. They are spending a lot of money on our image as employees. They are saving a lot of money because of their image with other employee groups. Not one union vote that I know of has passed since I've been here. So, now lets see what they want to do with us. But, let's leave our interest rate the same. There is absolutely no reason to change our expectations right now and as far as Delta Air Lines should be concerned, we as pilots want now what we wanted back then. Nothing has changed since 2008, except 1.) We have done our part, 2.) Delta Air Lines is kicking butt, & 3.) the time to pay up is quickly approaching.
I say, bring it on.
New K Now
And clearly, no pilot group ever gets
----------------------------------> this much,
without asking for, and believing it deserves
------------------------------------------------------------>this much.
Now, considering that the gains we got last time have shown not to be sustainable in bad economic times, and considering we're above the bottom, but probably not back at the peak, then it seems to me that whatever we end up being able to negotiate will be less than C2K. Now, I know it's almost a crime in these parts to talk about contract negotiations without using the term RESTORATION (capitalized), and I agree that the term "raise" is disgusting and sticks in the throat when trying to describe what we want and deserve... but I wonder whether you think it's possible to be more militant than what you describe, but still be pragmatic enough to think that what we get isn't going to be a full restoration. Maybe it'll look different, and maybe it'll capture gains in areas where we haven't made gains in a while, but I don't see that we're going to go forward to our past.
What I've never seen quantified, is how we can measure our contract objectives against operating margins that chocke the goose, but don't quite finish it off. It might be encouraging, or it might be scary. I honestly don't know. But I'd be awful curious to know where the sweet-spot is, and I'd certainly be agreeable to set the opener 25% above that point, and sleep well at night if we got to the target. The thing that's weird here is that we all talk about restoration, and what's good enough, but noone ever seems to have a logical way to explain where the target is.
Food for thought.
11-23-2010 | 12:53 PM
#2892
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
Sink;
Great post, and as I have stated, where that point is today is not where it will be when we craft our opener, therefore there is no point in it. We have had two good quarters. Not quite a streak but we are on our way. If we close 2011 with at least two more good quarters (Q 2 and 3) and two OK quarters (Q 1 and 4) we will be set up nicely to get some significant gains even if the other airlines do not get their houses in order. Problem is there are way to many dynamic events that need to transpire between now and then that we need to live before we can make an educated opener.
Great post, and as I have stated, where that point is today is not where it will be when we craft our opener, therefore there is no point in it. We have had two good quarters. Not quite a streak but we are on our way. If we close 2011 with at least two more good quarters (Q 2 and 3) and two OK quarters (Q 1 and 4) we will be set up nicely to get some significant gains even if the other airlines do not get their houses in order. Problem is there are way to many dynamic events that need to transpire between now and then that we need to live before we can make an educated opener.
11-23-2010 | 01:12 PM
#2893
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,775
Likes: 0
From: 777B
One methodology - coming from me, a guy who has employees that earn ME money, is that pay raises should be based on what we bring in for the company - to a degree. I think this is probably where: "The bigger airplanes pay more" pay structure came from.
One thing that you learn rather quickly as an employer is that employees get paid what they get paid - you, as the business owner, get their share of the profit. Conversely, in bad times, you eat their share of the loss. If that loss goes on too long, you shrink, through layoffs.
I think it is premature to try to boil down payraise negotiations to every possible permutation, both positive and negative. There is of course the arguement that "we lose money on Hawaii" so those pilots should pay for the opportunity to come to work (this would be the bottom end arguement). The top end arguement would be that we get a dumptruckload of $100 bills everytime we go to Lagos.
I personally think that since we lost the DB retirement, there is a whole order of magnitude less cost in employing one pilot. Some of that should be recoup-able in payrates either toward the 415C limit or in straight pay.
DAL seems, in many cases, to sell the tickets at cost plus a little. Part of this is due to wanting to be on the front page of priceline or one of the other services. The profit gravy is, to a degree, derived from extra fees. We are embarking on a program to de-list from the ticket mills - this is good. Being able to own our pricing power cannot be a bad thing.
It gets debated about once a year about how much additional ticket price we would have to charge to cover X% raises. In reality, for those that have been on the property for a while, I really don't have to care how they fund the raise. Management really doesn't want our input on any phase of operational improvements. Why would my opinion of how they fund my pay be important.
If they can afford to pay greenslip pay to get a 4 pilot trip to take off, after the first crew times out, I cannot see how restoration of C2K plus interest is out of the question. After all, greenslip pay today is just yesterday's straight pay.
One thing that you learn rather quickly as an employer is that employees get paid what they get paid - you, as the business owner, get their share of the profit. Conversely, in bad times, you eat their share of the loss. If that loss goes on too long, you shrink, through layoffs.
I think it is premature to try to boil down payraise negotiations to every possible permutation, both positive and negative. There is of course the arguement that "we lose money on Hawaii" so those pilots should pay for the opportunity to come to work (this would be the bottom end arguement). The top end arguement would be that we get a dumptruckload of $100 bills everytime we go to Lagos.
I personally think that since we lost the DB retirement, there is a whole order of magnitude less cost in employing one pilot. Some of that should be recoup-able in payrates either toward the 415C limit or in straight pay.
DAL seems, in many cases, to sell the tickets at cost plus a little. Part of this is due to wanting to be on the front page of priceline or one of the other services. The profit gravy is, to a degree, derived from extra fees. We are embarking on a program to de-list from the ticket mills - this is good. Being able to own our pricing power cannot be a bad thing.
It gets debated about once a year about how much additional ticket price we would have to charge to cover X% raises. In reality, for those that have been on the property for a while, I really don't have to care how they fund the raise. Management really doesn't want our input on any phase of operational improvements. Why would my opinion of how they fund my pay be important.
If they can afford to pay greenslip pay to get a 4 pilot trip to take off, after the first crew times out, I cannot see how restoration of C2K plus interest is out of the question. After all, greenslip pay today is just yesterday's straight pay.
11-23-2010 | 01:57 PM
#2894
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,601
Likes: 0
From: Dismayed
Part of negotiation should be a little bit of the unreasonable. If you don't ask, you don't get.
We need the company to be profitable, but otherwise since we don't set the ticket prices, we decide what our services are worth and let the 80lb heads with Ivy League MBAs worry about the pricing to make it happen.
We should also not concern ourselves with the other employee groups. Let them handle their own negotiations, with the possible exception of the mechanics and dispatchers, the company can replace the other groups is they aren't happy with what they can negotiate. Frankly, letting a large portion of the cat ranchers go has some serious upside, just look how many applications they had for their recent hiring announcement!
We need the company to be profitable, but otherwise since we don't set the ticket prices, we decide what our services are worth and let the 80lb heads with Ivy League MBAs worry about the pricing to make it happen.
We should also not concern ourselves with the other employee groups. Let them handle their own negotiations, with the possible exception of the mechanics and dispatchers, the company can replace the other groups is they aren't happy with what they can negotiate. Frankly, letting a large portion of the cat ranchers go has some serious upside, just look how many applications they had for their recent hiring announcement!
11-23-2010 | 02:55 PM
#2895
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Likes: 0
One thing that you learn rather quickly as an employer is that employees get paid what they get paid - you, as the business owner, get their share of the profit. Conversely, in bad times, you eat their share of the loss. If that loss goes on too long, you shrink, through layoffs....
It gets debated about once a year about how much additional ticket price we would have to charge to cover X% raises. In reality, for those that have been on the property for a while, I really don't have to care how they fund the raise. Management really doesn't want our input on any phase of operational improvements. Why would my opinion of how they fund my pay be important.
If they can afford to pay greenslip pay to get a 4 pilot trip to take off, after the first crew times out, I cannot see how restoration of C2K plus interest is out of the question. After all, greenslip pay today is just yesterday's straight pay.
It gets debated about once a year about how much additional ticket price we would have to charge to cover X% raises. In reality, for those that have been on the property for a while, I really don't have to care how they fund the raise. Management really doesn't want our input on any phase of operational improvements. Why would my opinion of how they fund my pay be important.
If they can afford to pay greenslip pay to get a 4 pilot trip to take off, after the first crew times out, I cannot see how restoration of C2K plus interest is out of the question. After all, greenslip pay today is just yesterday's straight pay.
How would Scambo the employer fund a raise that puts your employee costs substantially above their peer group? What would the result be for Scambo's business (and ultimately the employees) if Scambo's competition didn't match the increased labor costs? Remember C2K and the incomplete pattern bargaining? I remember AAA getting crushed in bankruptcy and APA voluntarily giving away the store to avoid Ch11. NWA signed on for about 80% of DAL rates in a very smart deal for the time. UAL followed in court soon after, and Delta was left alone.
Personally, I didn't like the results which that method of not caring produced. I thought that maybe a few folks had learned something from it.
Oh, the operational disruptions of which you speak will occur with pay at C2K or LOA 51 levels. I don't think that's applicable to the discussion I think you're trying to have.
11-23-2010 | 03:04 PM
#2896
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,775
Likes: 0
From: 777B
Slow;
I wasn't proposing a foodfight, just being honest. If you would like to be on the other side of the table from me during this discussion, that is your choice.
As an employer, I have a standard starting payrate. If I have an exceptionally good (productive) employee, he/she gets raises ahead of peers. If I have a lousy one, they get the door. It is a little different than the seniority system.
Bottom line, I have never had an employee bail me out. If I did, I would be beholden to him or her.
I wasn't proposing a foodfight, just being honest. If you would like to be on the other side of the table from me during this discussion, that is your choice.
As an employer, I have a standard starting payrate. If I have an exceptionally good (productive) employee, he/she gets raises ahead of peers. If I have a lousy one, they get the door. It is a little different than the seniority system.
Bottom line, I have never had an employee bail me out. If I did, I would be beholden to him or her.
11-23-2010 | 03:14 PM
#2897
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Likes: 0
Slow;
I wasn't proposing a foodfight, just being honest. If you would like to be on the other side of the table from me during this discussion, that is your choice.
As an employer, I have a standard starting payrate. If I have an exceptionally good (productive) employee, he/she gets raises ahead of peers. If I have a lousy one, they get the door. It is a little different than the seniority system.
Bottom line, I have never had an employee bail me out. If I did, I would be beholden to him or her.
I wasn't proposing a foodfight, just being honest. If you would like to be on the other side of the table from me during this discussion, that is your choice.
As an employer, I have a standard starting payrate. If I have an exceptionally good (productive) employee, he/she gets raises ahead of peers. If I have a lousy one, they get the door. It is a little different than the seniority system.
Bottom line, I have never had an employee bail me out. If I did, I would be beholden to him or her.
I think we have to find a way to mitigate risk. Having costs way above your peers in a business that returns less than 10% margin per year in its best years is a recipe for disaster (like we've just experienced). We need to reap a disproportionate share of the cash flow we generate, especially on the upside. We need to have a sustainable wage structure for the downtimes, and not (as you highlighted in your own business) transfer all the risk to our junior employees.
I think we need to find a different way to get paid, one that pays more consistently to protect both the employee and the employer.
Oh, would you call it an employee bailout if you returned your employee compensation to industry average from a position that was substantially above that? You're confusing me with your management/owner to labor transitions.
11-23-2010 | 03:19 PM
#2898
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,775
Likes: 0
From: 777B
As to the arguement of pay being substantially higher than the competition - it is apples to oranges to a point. Quality work will and should always cost more. I pay overtime frequently to stay on schedule. It hasn't sunk me yet. I dont begrudge paying overtime because my word is my contract. It is also factored in to my bids on jobs. I often work people 7 days in a row. Its not the same business as an airline. I also have savings plans an home ownership assistance.
At DAL, I think we have slashed to the point that morale is so low, it is tough to get the employees to be fully cheerful when doing the job. In other words, its tough to guarantee the quality product. Forget about the outsourcing part, thats a whole other discussion.
Operational disruptions are surely expensive in the airline business. However, if they aren't factored in, we need new managers.
Sorry if I am confusing you. I am not Ronald Reagan the Great Communicator.
At DAL, I think we have slashed to the point that morale is so low, it is tough to get the employees to be fully cheerful when doing the job. In other words, its tough to guarantee the quality product. Forget about the outsourcing part, thats a whole other discussion.
Operational disruptions are surely expensive in the airline business. However, if they aren't factored in, we need new managers.
Sorry if I am confusing you. I am not Ronald Reagan the Great Communicator.
11-23-2010 | 04:00 PM
#2899
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 0
From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
The other point you are making that I think is really key...
There are many intangible benefits to taking good care of your employees. SWA understands this. As a business owner, you obviously understand it. In the past, the really successful businesses have understood this and have considered paying more for better/happier/more productive employees to be a competitive advantage. In today's world where the bean counter mentality seems to dominate much of American business... not so much. One of the main flaws I see with LM's proactive engagement approach is that it has allowed our management to make this critical mistake without most of the normal consequences. Ultimately, I think this is bad for Delta and it is certainly bad for all of our careers.
11-23-2010 | 04:16 PM
#2900
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
From: Recovering Airline Pilot
ALPA's Economics & Financial Analysis (E&FA) Department conducts a detailed analysis of the company and determines what can truly be afforded. This information is typically presented to the MEC so they can make a determination about what to submit as a contract opener.
Now that's funny.
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