Thanks for taking the lead on that Carl.

 

Bringing this over here in the hopes of productive discussion. I know the tone of my post may appear to some confrontational, but what I am seeking is to challenge DPA and hold them accountable. I think that's a good thing and I hope to keep it civil, although I know that sometimes we can all (and I'm just as guilty as anyone else) stray from that. When we do, lets just regroup and raise the bar in our conversation. Important decisions and all require clear thinking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingViking
wiTheir mission statement pretty much sums it up for you. With specific questions I suggest you email them directly, different from ALPA you ll get an answer.

This is what's so frustrating to a line pilot. If they are going to make a point about it by attacking ALPA, then I shouldn't have to e-mail them to find out where they stand, it ought to be in their C&BLs, or policy manual, or administrative manual, oopss, never mind, not available for view by the average Delta pilot, if they exist at all, or at the very least on their website.

We have DPA proponents declaring the conflict of interest of 24J, but yet there is no publication anywhere that DPA wouldn't take that money too
I expect more transparency from DPA.

DPA says they are different and more open, yet any Delta pilot can challenge or question ALPA's leadership on our forum, but DPA doesn't provide the same opportunity for dialogue. How can I truly judge DPA when I can't get to know their leadership or openly question them and have them on the record?

Maybe it's a bad analogy, but it's easy to throw mud, it's tougher to build a mud hut. I know that DPA can toss mud, but I have no way to determine if they are as adept in the building trades.

BTW, I've always had a quick response to my inquiries from ALPA.

 

Bringing this over as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Yes, and it's not true. He's making it up. He will not back up this claim because he can't.

Carl

I have no way of knowing whether he's telling the truth or not, but as a Delta pilot I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, so in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I believe him.

I'm sure DPA get's plenty of e-mails so I wouldn't be surprised if some don't get answered. It just happens, no need to be overly defensive about it.

FWIW, I sent DPA an e-mail and got a response from TC, it was with regards to the C&BLs being finalized. He assured me that it would be done when they reach 50% of the cards required for a vote. I appreciate his response.

Now that they are at 4K in the card count, I'd like to see the C&BLs, I was reviewing the DPA DOCs section of the website, but didn't find it. Does anyone know if its been publish so that the average line guy can see how DPA will function?

 

Don't mean to speak for The Manager here, but what it means to me is getting upwards of 95 hours of pay per month on the highest position you can hold plus a $1,000 stipend plus a credit card for your expenses - funded by management. After a while it can become easy to identify with the people who pay you instead of the people you represent. Especially when they come to your children's parties.

I don't think they were then. Now we have "constructive engagement", very close personal relationships with management, a post bankruptcy history of more outsourcing and a refusal to open the books on this FPL money. At the very least, you must admit this has a very bad smell.

Carl

 

Ive not seen anything official on this topic, but I would like to see 24J deleted and that funding sent directly to pilots in the form of extra pay. Then our dues should increase in proportion to that exact same amount such that take home pay is not affected. FPL still gets sent to union officers doing union work, but it's DIRECTLY funded by the dues of the members. Our current 24J is an invitation to misrepresentation.

Don't know if my above post changes your view. I really think my proposal makes for a more honest and accountable system.

Carl

 

You can't possibly mean guarantee. ALPA doesn't offer a guarantee. Why would you demand this of DPA? If DPA ever started to talk like that, I'd be gone.

This is the argument frequently made by ALPA proponents. You say that DPA can't be our union until they prove they can deliver, yet you also know DPA can't deliver anything if they're not the pilot's bargaining agent. It's a circular argument that seems orchestrated to ensure ALPA remains the permanent agent for us. I disagree with this argument.

All you have to do is call them up and ask to speak to these names on the board. They can tell you all about their experience. I think you'll be impressed.

Carl

 

We've already done that. It was held in ATL and all were invited to attend. It was a good turnout and included news media. DPA filmed it and put it on the website. I'm sure they'll do more. Be sure you attend if you're interested.

I think your use of the term "sales pitch" is insulting and makes me wonder if you're just here to make noise.

Telling the truth about ALPA is not attacking. If they were lies, then you might have a point. And if you want something proven to you, you need to at least listen to what they have to say.

Carl

 

My copies of DAL contracts going back to 1990 have essentially the same language in 24J. That's as far back as my records go, but I believe that we've had it for 3 decades, but I can't verify that.

Throughout that time we've had various forms of relationships with management, some good, some bad, some openly hostile, some catapulted us to the top of the industry in pay and benefits, others not so good, but 24J was never an issue with regards to our relationship with management since it has always been a contractual obligation. Because of 24J we have a large SMRA account, we have a great deal of autonomy and more resources than other ALPA MEC's or independent pilot groups.

I get what you are saying about outsourcing and parties, but those aren't related to 24J. And I hear what you are saying about our current leadership. You don't like it, you don't like them, I get that, but that is not about whether 24 J is a valuable union resource. Another not so perfect analogy, but it's not the fishing boat (24J) that you smell, it's the fish (leadership) in the boat that you aren't particularly fond of. That in my mind is a different argument.

If your dream team came to power, I'm sure you would find 24J a useful resource to help fund a robust union operation. Once again thanks for the civility.

 

Fair enough, but if DPA wants to earn my vote they need to show me that they can do more than just point out someone elses faults. That unfortunately has been my observation. It's more about pointing the finger at ALPA then it is that we have the capacity to do better.

 

Boy you sure missed a lot of my responses to you. Maybe you're just responding from the bottom up.

Carl