IQuitEagle

Way to completely misread what I wrote genius. My point is that jetBlue and the likes are not "the" reason for the recent concessionary contracts at legacies. Taking a pay cut to match jetBlue pay is an effect of their issues, not the cause. But go on continuing to believe that if JB did not exist, then legacy pay would never have come down so much...

Herkulesdrvr

Actually, not true. What he said is the truth, their pay was directly tied to JB narrow body pay. The facts are the facts, not sure how that can be disputed.

IQuitEagle

OK, I'll write this one last time since you both misread what I posted. I am not arguing that the concessionary pay was not based on JB pay at the time. True enough. What I am saying is that if it wasn't JB, it would have been someone else, or they would have come up with another pay scale altogether. The problems of the legacies, and the resulting effects on pay, etc., would have occurred irrespective of JB's existence.

We as pilots are quick to blame one group of us or another for our ills. My point is that the notion that one group, airline, union/non-union, as the basis for our problems is misguided. Hence my reference to the very group of pilots at legacies, who are just as guilty of "lowering the bar" at one point or another, as the next. We are our own worst enemy. And no single group is responsible for our industry's woes.

For the record, I would like to get a union on property here at JB. But I am tired of you blowhards continually saying how we are dragging the industry down by not having one. We are just dragging our own selves down. That said, not everything is terrible here.

Cruise

I'm sorry you're tired of hearing the truth.....I know it hurts. But the fact remains (let's remove history and look to the future), anytime a negotiating committee is bargaining with a company over narrowbody pay rates, JetBlue rates are a factor. That's not a dig on JB.....but because your rates lag it makes it more difficult for anyone else to move forward. Plain and simple.....this is not disputable. All this said, it's not just a JetBlue thing, it's a whomever is at the bottom of the industry.

I'm glad you support organizing. Not only will it give your pilots a say in their future, but it will also help the industry through pattern bargaining.

Moby Dick

As they say, he is entitled to his own opinion. He is not entitled to his own facts.

Again, your argument is fallacious due to the fact that it WAS B6 pay that the judges imposed on UAL, LCC, and DAL. Another fact: DAL went into CH. 11 ONE DAY before the law changed to disallow unilateral impostion of pay rates and work rules.

Why? Because they wanted B6 narrowbody pay rates, that's why.


Again, not true. There is a DIRECT link between non-Union B6 pay rates and the yoke the industry has suffered under the last 7 to 8 years. Then along comes Virgin and Allegiant and lowers the bar even more. The upside for B6 pilots is it takes some of the blame away from you.

Did you vote for a Union (any Union?) Are you willing to join the next organizing committee? If not then, its all just yakkity yak.

And, for the record, calling people names is where you have to go when your argument fails.

Kellwolf

This is something BOTH sides need to realize. A LOT of the hardcore pro-union guys start losing support because of this exact thing. Rather than keep with the discussion and explain where they are coming from and why a CBA is a good thing, the arguments tend to swerve sharply towards the "If you vote "no," you're stupid" type arguments.

alvrb211

People need to get educated and make an informed decision. Not vote on the basis of treatment from others.



JJ

Herkulesdrvr

if you want to cut your nose off to spite your face go right ahead. If you can't separate truth from fiction in this business it only regresses all pilots.

Kellwolf

Jesus. This is what I'm saying. You guys keep saying people are dumb and stupid. Some just don't know any different and it's on US to educate them. You're killing those of us that are trying to do that by just insulting people to the point they think everyone in support of a CBA are all a-holes out for themselves that look down their noses on each other. It has NOTHING to do with "cutting off my nose to spite my face" or "separating truth from fiction." It has to do with EDUCATING PILOTS. If YOU can't get that through your head, then the next drive is just as doomed as the last one. In case your reading comprehension skills have failed you, I'M ON YOUR SIDE. What I'm trying to accomplish is keeping you and the rest of the communication challenged pro-CBA pilots from hacking off the other side so much, we drive "yes" voters away. The fact is you have to be political in this situation. The fiction is you can't just say anything any way you want and have it taken how you meant it.

Herkulesdrvr

for someone waving the self righteousness flag of not insulting others maybe you could take a look at your own comments first?