SWA/Airtran Seniority SL10 Outsider Thoughts
10-12-2011, 09:00 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,165
Originally Posted by Sniper
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, obviously. That being said, are you willing to concede that your opinion is in the minority of those pilots who have formed an opinion on this potential SLI?
Will you concede that almost all forum posters see no risk of job loss to AirTran pilots if they turn down SL10?
10-12-2011, 09:30 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Originally Posted by Andy
LOL! I'm furloughed; got plenty of time.
This one probably sums up a more likely strategy - sell off all of AirTran to TheVampireSquid and buy back strategic pieces:
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/so...ml#post1049589
It's an expensive method to get around MB but would likely be successful. MB cannot stop Southwest from reselling AirTran to Wall Street sharks. And yes, the Wall Street sharks would extract quite a few dinero to be the middleman.
Here are a ton of my posts on the subject; some are less relevent:
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/so...ml#post1044205
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/so...ml#post1048706
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/so...ml#post1048716
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/so...ml#post1048719
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/so...ml#post1048762
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/so...ml#post1048804
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/so...ml#post1049529
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/so...ml#post1049573
This one probably sums up a more likely strategy - sell off all of AirTran to TheVampireSquid and buy back strategic pieces:
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/so...ml#post1049589
It's an expensive method to get around MB but would likely be successful. MB cannot stop Southwest from reselling AirTran to Wall Street sharks. And yes, the Wall Street sharks would extract quite a few dinero to be the middleman.
Here are a ton of my posts on the subject; some are less relevent:
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/so...ml#post1044205
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/so...ml#post1048706
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/so...ml#post1048716
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/so...ml#post1048719
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/so...ml#post1048762
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/so...ml#post1048804
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/so...ml#post1049529
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/so...ml#post1049573
I hate that you are on furlough. I hope you get back flying soon.
I have to admit that I didn't read them all, but it looks like most of your posts involve SWA selling off Air Tran assets then putting them on the street as the planes are retired. Ok. I've heard that one before. I made an counter to that on another thread, and I'll have to find it later. Bit, the short of it is that if AT pilots got an arbitrated list, and SWA still began fragmentation and furloughs on their side, they could petition the court to halt the out of seniority furloughs (and also bring up a possible violation of M/B.)
When you said the legislation was "weak" I thought you were referring to an earlier sentiment (expressed by you, I think.) that M/B was unconstitutional. If that was you, why do you think it's unconstitutional?
I'll be back later tonight.
10-12-2011, 10:00 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,165
Originally Posted by newKnow
Andy,
I hate that you are on furlough. I hope you get back flying soon.
I have to admit that I didn't read them all, but it looks like most of your posts involve SWA selling off Air Tran assets then putting them on the street as the planes are retired. Ok. I've heard that one before. I made an counter to that on another thread, and I'll have to find it later. Bit, the short of it is that if AT pilots got an arbitrated list, and SWA still began fragmentation and furloughs on their side, they could petition the court to halt the out of seniority furloughs (and also bring up a possible violation of M/B.)
When you said the legislation was "weak" I thought you were referring to an earlier sentiment (expressed by you, I think.) that M/B was unconstitutional. If that was you, why do you think it's unconstitutional?
I'll be back later tonight.
I hate that you are on furlough. I hope you get back flying soon.
I have to admit that I didn't read them all, but it looks like most of your posts involve SWA selling off Air Tran assets then putting them on the street as the planes are retired. Ok. I've heard that one before. I made an counter to that on another thread, and I'll have to find it later. Bit, the short of it is that if AT pilots got an arbitrated list, and SWA still began fragmentation and furloughs on their side, they could petition the court to halt the out of seniority furloughs (and also bring up a possible violation of M/B.)
When you said the legislation was "weak" I thought you were referring to an earlier sentiment (expressed by you, I think.) that M/B was unconstitutional. If that was you, why do you think it's unconstitutional?
I'll be back later tonight.
I see MB as overreaching.
10-12-2011, 10:01 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
Originally Posted by Andy
Among forum posters, I am definitely in the minority.
Will you concede that almost all forum posters see no risk of job loss to AirTran pilots if they turn down SL10?
10-12-2011, 10:28 AM
#35
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Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,165
Originally Posted by Sniper
I asked if you thought you were in the minority of "pilots", not just forum posters. As you're currently furloughed (not sure what you're doing with your time), do you feel you are in a position to accurately gauge the feelings of line pilots who don't post on forums?
Why did you bother to ask the question? Flamebait?
10-12-2011, 10:38 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
Originally Posted by Andy
I apologize; you didn't get to spring your trap on me. No matter how I answered, you would have used the fact that I'm furloughed (ie not in daily contact with other pilots) as a rebuttal.
Why did you bother to ask the question? Flamebait?
Why did you bother to ask the question? Flamebait?
No, I wanted to know why you think the proposed integration is "fair", given what you posted. I then thought about your answer, and it occurred to me that maybe you don't know the answer b/c of your unfortunate situation - I've been there too, sadly.
Please, lets not go down this road, or take it to PM if you have a personal issue with me.
Last edited by Sniper; 10-12-2011 at 10:41 AM. Reason: added specifics
10-12-2011, 10:47 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,165
Originally Posted by Sniper
Whoa . . .
No, I wanted to know why you think the way you do about the AT/SWA integration, given what you posted. I then thought about your answer, and it occurred to me that maybe you don't know the answer b/c of your unfortunate situation - I've been there too, sadly.
Please, lets not go down this road, or take it to PM if you have a personal issue with me.
No, I wanted to know why you think the way you do about the AT/SWA integration, given what you posted. I then thought about your answer, and it occurred to me that maybe you don't know the answer b/c of your unfortunate situation - I've been there too, sadly.
Please, lets not go down this road, or take it to PM if you have a personal issue with me.
I suppose I'm in the minority of pilots on my point of view.
Most pilots worry about seniority. I don't but I have no idea what it's like to be above the 90%ile of a seniority list. And since I'm on furlough 11 years after being hired, it's difficult for me to have sympathy for someone who was hired at AirTran after me and will be bumped down to senior FO at the (currently) strongest airline.
I've been furloughed since Mar 09 and communicate with other furloughees but this subject isn't even on our collective radar screen.
10-12-2011, 10:53 AM
#38
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: "Prof" button manipulator
Posts: 1,685
Originally Posted by 727C47
not really, its just that i think long term the ATN people will be ok, once all the drama fades, "head in the sand?", i think you need to find a new hobby.
Good, I'll let you know when I need to worry, or care about what you think.
(Hint: Don't hold your breath.) (Probably coming from one of the 60+ year old people still flying the line.)
I have friends and family at SWA, and friends at ATN, the vast majority at both companies aren't happy with this whole merger, (YA THINK?) the vast majority want to get this done and move on, (LIE) the vast majority dont post or even lurk on these websites,
You're right, they don't, and if you want more of the SWA sentiment towards AT employees, why don't you ask one of the "SWA regulars" what really is talked about on their SWAPA forum. (Another hint: You're WAY OFF BASE, if you think the guys/gals that post on the SWAPA forum want anything remotely similar to fair & equitable.)
the vocal minority don't reflect the views of the majority, hence the recall of the MEC members at ATN. (Speculation on reasons as to why the members were recalled.)
personally I hope the new combined company does well, and that a rising tide of profitability lifts all their boats, living well, and doing well will assuage the lingering pain this,and any merger brings. You keep telling yourself that, long after the AT guys lost of years of seniority, pay, and QOL. But then again, you don't have your head in the sand.
Good, I'll let you know when I need to worry, or care about what you think.
(Hint: Don't hold your breath.) (Probably coming from one of the 60+ year old people still flying the line.)I have friends and family at SWA, and friends at ATN, the vast majority at both companies aren't happy with this whole merger, (YA THINK?) the vast majority want to get this done and move on, (LIE) the vast majority dont post or even lurk on these websites,
You're right, they don't, and if you want more of the SWA sentiment towards AT employees, why don't you ask one of the "SWA regulars" what really is talked about on their SWAPA forum. (Another hint: You're WAY OFF BASE, if you think the guys/gals that post on the SWAPA forum want anything remotely similar to fair & equitable.)
the vocal minority don't reflect the views of the majority, hence the recall of the MEC members at ATN. (Speculation on reasons as to why the members were recalled.)
personally I hope the new combined company does well, and that a rising tide of profitability lifts all their boats, living well, and doing well will assuage the lingering pain this,and any merger brings. You keep telling yourself that, long after the AT guys lost of years of seniority, pay, and QOL. But then again, you don't have your head in the sand.
GJ
10-12-2011, 11:02 AM
#39
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Of all of the ATN pilots that I know, all are voting for it, but think it is a screw job. Their reasoning is, they know GK will do exactly what they say.
My response is, you vote yes, nothing else matters, no laws, no TFA's nothing, you are done. These is no recourse. Most understand that, and will vote yes on a game of Texas Hold'em.
My response is, you vote yes, nothing else matters, no laws, no TFA's nothing, you are done. These is no recourse. Most understand that, and will vote yes on a game of Texas Hold'em.
So I bet this passes as one FL pilot said 70/30.
IMHO, it'd only take one lawyer and one pilot in that 30% to file a lawsuit and then it could get interesting. Get testimony and records of what has been going on in the meetings with FL ALPA, SWA and SWAPA. What was really going to happen next? Liquidation was talked about openly when and to whom?
But when you have an entire work force going under the assumption that they will be fired and liquidated if they don't agree to terms that heavily favored employees I think you have a situation ripe for a lawsuit and using MB to prove the case.
Newk can answer this but heavy handedness imho could be the grounds for a suit if someone, just anyone, wants to do something. Sure the pilot group voted it in but was it under duress and threat? By all accounts it is.
That's why I don't think this is wise on the vaunted SWA's management team and GK.
10-12-2011, 11:04 AM
#40
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
---
As to AirTran, they posted a record profit in 2009, $137M and in 2010 $128M. They weren't a dieing airline as was say Midwest. Which according to the first and only judgement in a case of MB (Midwest FA's lawsuit) the U.S. District court said:
FL was not going out of business as of May 2011 when the SWA/FL deal closed. I think MB will absolutely come to play here with SWA/FL and what I wonder is if you have grounds to say SWA threats forced pilots to vote a certain way.
Newk? Can you sue if this passes? Or more importantly, can you find a lawyer to sue even if this passes knowing that the airline being sued has...$3.6B in unrestricted cash and equivalents?
As to AirTran, they posted a record profit in 2009, $137M and in 2010 $128M. They weren't a dieing airline as was say Midwest. Which according to the first and only judgement in a case of MB (Midwest FA's lawsuit) the U.S. District court said:
Essentially, RAH purchased the assets of a failing airline, one that was scheduled to
lose its entire fleet of leased aircraft soon after the transaction, hoping to capitalize on the
goodwill associated with the Midwest brand.
....
Ultimately, the plaintiffs are on the outside looking in because
Midwest failed as an air carrier, not because Republic purchased Midwest. McCaskill-Bond
was never meant to protect the employees of an air carrier that simply goes out of business.
lose its entire fleet of leased aircraft soon after the transaction, hoping to capitalize on the
goodwill associated with the Midwest brand.
....
Ultimately, the plaintiffs are on the outside looking in because
Midwest failed as an air carrier, not because Republic purchased Midwest. McCaskill-Bond
was never meant to protect the employees of an air carrier that simply goes out of business.
Newk? Can you sue if this passes? Or more importantly, can you find a lawyer to sue even if this passes knowing that the airline being sued has...$3.6B in unrestricted cash and equivalents?
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