SWA/Airtran Seniority SL10 Outsider Thoughts
10-12-2011, 11:08 AM
#41
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Here is one other thing, say SWA decides it will merge again. Say this time with Alaska. SWA management bows up and says staple or else. Alaska pilots say the hell with you we're not going to allow what happened to the FL pilots to happen to us, we'll sue you out of existence.
SWA backs down knowing they can't get away with their plan twice. A SL is hammered out and FL pilots end up at the bottom for the second time.
SWA backs down knowing they can't get away with their plan twice. A SL is hammered out and FL pilots end up at the bottom for the second time.
10-12-2011, 12:13 PM
#43
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Andy
I don't have a dog in the fight but I think it was about as 'fair' as any other integration. It was certainly much more fair than Delta/Northwest - that should have gone down as DOH due to the massive early retirements on the DAL side just prior to the merger, along with the much higher percentage of widebodies on the Northwest side of the house.
.
.
10-12-2011, 12:14 PM
#44
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
I agree with Newk.
But I also think Andy was just trying to get a rise with a flaming post aimed at Tsquare.
But I also think Andy was just trying to get a rise with a flaming post aimed at Tsquare.
10-12-2011, 05:33 PM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: B737/Capt
Posts: 998
Originally Posted by tsquare
You need to be drug tested.
The Oscar
10-12-2011, 06:26 PM
#48
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Originally Posted by OscartheGrouch
Now, now Tsquare, Andy and I have had a few discussions here on APC and I find him to be quite reasonable. Did I mention - "Go Vols" BTW? You and I have our differences just as Andy and I have but occassionally if we listen we might learn something. There is nothing to learn from us arrogant SWA folks, but Andy isn't one of us. To think that he is pro-SWA (not anti either) is to underestimate.
The Oscar
The Oscar
10-12-2011, 06:43 PM
#49
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 83
From ata smartbrief
Southwest Airlines has proposed an alternate plan regarding the integration of seniority lists for Southwest and AirTran Airways pilots as the two carriers continue to merge operations. If the pilots fail to reach a mutual agreement and turn down an initial proposal, Southwest may have to execute Plan B, which involves canceling a full integration of the two carriers, AirTran's union leaders told pilots in a presentation. "If we receive a 'no' vote, it means that we cannot execute the original integration plan and we will have to reset," Southwest spokesman Paul Flaningan said.
Air Travel Tips & Airline Industry News: Today in the Sky - USATODAY.com ... plan-for-airtran/552777/1
UPDATED: 2:28 p.m. ET
Southwest may have an "alternate plan" for AirTran if pilots at the latter vote against a deal to combine seniority lists with their Southwest counterparts.
That's according to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, where reporter Kelly Yamanouchi writes:
In an effort to encourage pilots to approve the deal, Southwest has raised the possibility of a Plan B: that AirTran may not fully integrate as planned into Southwest if the pilot proposal fails.
"If we receive a 'no' vote, it means that we cannot execute the original integration plan and we will have to reset," Southwest spokesman Paul Flaningan says in a written statement to the Journal-Constitution.
THE ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION: Southwest raises possibility of alternate plan for AirTran merger
BLOOMBERG NEWS: Southwest considers stand-alone AirTran if pilot vote fails
The newspaper writes the prospect of a Plan B "came up shortly after AirTran's pilots union leadership voted against an initial deal … ."
In that situation, Southwest CEO Gary Kelly expressed disappointment that the tentative deal on seniority was never put to AirTran's union membership for a vote.
ALSO ONLINE: Kelly talks about AirTran seniority rejection (The Dallas Morning News; Aug. 22, 2011)
For now, Southwest says it's continuing to integrate AirTran's operations.
But things might look different if Southwest does eventually resort to the newly reported alternate plan.
ALSO ONLINE: Southwest Airlines photos
ALSO ONLINE: AirTran photos
In that scenario -- which at least one analyst suspects is a negotiating ploy -- Southwest would continue to operate subsidiary AirTran as a separate operation , a move that would still give it access to AirTran's fleet, Atlanta hub and its international routes
But the Journal-Constitution reports such a plan could also set the stage for a "slow dismantling" of AirTran, perhaps similar to how Southwest handled its acquisition of now-defunct Muse Air in the 1980s.
When asked specifically about that passage, Southwest spokeswoman Beth Harbin told Today in the Sky:
I know there has been a lot of speculation. It's natural, I guess, during a time when a potential agreement is introduced, people are reading their way through it, and making conclusions. The Muse Air acquisition was 30 years ago. It was an approach. Not the only approach. We believe Pilots today have a fair offer to consider and are optimistic they will approve it.
Bloomberg News also picks up on the story, writing "keeping AirTran flying on its own would run counter to the goal of folding the discount carrier into Southwest, the biggest low-fare airline."
"I''m sure that's not what management planned when they acquired AirTran," Hunter Keay, an analyst at Wolfe Trahan & Co. in New York, says to Bloomberg. "It probably is to some degree a negotiating tactic."
The Bloomberg report makes no mention any possible dismantling of AirTran. Referencing the same summary cited by the Journal-Constitution, Bloomberg quotes Southwest as saying simply "Plan B calls for AAI (AirTran) and SWA (Southwest) to remain separate and unintegrated."
As for the background of the AirTran pilots' seniority issue, the Journal-Constitution says some AirTran pilots believe going to arbitration could net them a better deal.
Others, however, appear to be frustrated -- as evidenced by a Tuesday move to recall three union leaders amid what the Journal-Constitution writes is "discontent over the union leadership decision to decline the first offer."
As for Southwest, spokeswoman Beth Harbin tells Bloomberg: "Our focus is going to be on getting the deal with the pilots done quickly because that really does set a good momentum for the rest of the integration."
Stay tuned ...
I know many of the Airtran pilots feel they have a lot to lose if they don't cave in to SWA's new offer. However many of them feel(as I strongly believe) now is the time to test McCaskill Bond as this case is exactly what it was written to prevent. SWA did not rescue anyone. Airtran was a very profitable airline before SWA appeared. I believe the courts would ram this down SWA throat(or up their ##!) if it came before them. They could come out much better on seniority. To break up or dissolve a perfectly good business model and add to current unemployment rolls would be totally unacceptable. Airtran pilots are under intense intimidation to vote for this new plan.
Southwest Airlines has proposed an alternate plan regarding the integration of seniority lists for Southwest and AirTran Airways pilots as the two carriers continue to merge operations. If the pilots fail to reach a mutual agreement and turn down an initial proposal, Southwest may have to execute Plan B, which involves canceling a full integration of the two carriers, AirTran's union leaders told pilots in a presentation. "If we receive a 'no' vote, it means that we cannot execute the original integration plan and we will have to reset," Southwest spokesman Paul Flaningan said.
Air Travel Tips & Airline Industry News: Today in the Sky - USATODAY.com ... plan-for-airtran/552777/1
UPDATED: 2:28 p.m. ET
Southwest may have an "alternate plan" for AirTran if pilots at the latter vote against a deal to combine seniority lists with their Southwest counterparts.
That's according to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, where reporter Kelly Yamanouchi writes:
In an effort to encourage pilots to approve the deal, Southwest has raised the possibility of a Plan B: that AirTran may not fully integrate as planned into Southwest if the pilot proposal fails.
"If we receive a 'no' vote, it means that we cannot execute the original integration plan and we will have to reset," Southwest spokesman Paul Flaningan says in a written statement to the Journal-Constitution.
THE ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION: Southwest raises possibility of alternate plan for AirTran merger
BLOOMBERG NEWS: Southwest considers stand-alone AirTran if pilot vote fails
The newspaper writes the prospect of a Plan B "came up shortly after AirTran's pilots union leadership voted against an initial deal … ."
In that situation, Southwest CEO Gary Kelly expressed disappointment that the tentative deal on seniority was never put to AirTran's union membership for a vote.
ALSO ONLINE: Kelly talks about AirTran seniority rejection (The Dallas Morning News; Aug. 22, 2011)
For now, Southwest says it's continuing to integrate AirTran's operations.
But things might look different if Southwest does eventually resort to the newly reported alternate plan.
ALSO ONLINE: Southwest Airlines photos
ALSO ONLINE: AirTran photos
In that scenario -- which at least one analyst suspects is a negotiating ploy -- Southwest would continue to operate subsidiary AirTran as a separate operation , a move that would still give it access to AirTran's fleet, Atlanta hub and its international routes
But the Journal-Constitution reports such a plan could also set the stage for a "slow dismantling" of AirTran, perhaps similar to how Southwest handled its acquisition of now-defunct Muse Air in the 1980s.
When asked specifically about that passage, Southwest spokeswoman Beth Harbin told Today in the Sky:
I know there has been a lot of speculation. It's natural, I guess, during a time when a potential agreement is introduced, people are reading their way through it, and making conclusions. The Muse Air acquisition was 30 years ago. It was an approach. Not the only approach. We believe Pilots today have a fair offer to consider and are optimistic they will approve it.
Bloomberg News also picks up on the story, writing "keeping AirTran flying on its own would run counter to the goal of folding the discount carrier into Southwest, the biggest low-fare airline."
"I''m sure that's not what management planned when they acquired AirTran," Hunter Keay, an analyst at Wolfe Trahan & Co. in New York, says to Bloomberg. "It probably is to some degree a negotiating tactic."
The Bloomberg report makes no mention any possible dismantling of AirTran. Referencing the same summary cited by the Journal-Constitution, Bloomberg quotes Southwest as saying simply "Plan B calls for AAI (AirTran) and SWA (Southwest) to remain separate and unintegrated."
As for the background of the AirTran pilots' seniority issue, the Journal-Constitution says some AirTran pilots believe going to arbitration could net them a better deal.
Others, however, appear to be frustrated -- as evidenced by a Tuesday move to recall three union leaders amid what the Journal-Constitution writes is "discontent over the union leadership decision to decline the first offer."
As for Southwest, spokeswoman Beth Harbin tells Bloomberg: "Our focus is going to be on getting the deal with the pilots done quickly because that really does set a good momentum for the rest of the integration."
Stay tuned ...
I know many of the Airtran pilots feel they have a lot to lose if they don't cave in to SWA's new offer. However many of them feel(as I strongly believe) now is the time to test McCaskill Bond as this case is exactly what it was written to prevent. SWA did not rescue anyone. Airtran was a very profitable airline before SWA appeared. I believe the courts would ram this down SWA throat(or up their ##!) if it came before them. They could come out much better on seniority. To break up or dissolve a perfectly good business model and add to current unemployment rolls would be totally unacceptable. Airtran pilots are under intense intimidation to vote for this new plan.
10-12-2011, 07:00 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Originally Posted by Andy
I'm not a constitutional scholar but the Supreme Court has previously ruled that businesses have many of the rights of individuals. Does MB require integration if the acquirer decides to sell the asset prior to integration?
I see MB as overreaching.
I see MB as overreaching.
If you don't know that Congress and the Supreme Court through it's interpretation of the Constitution are able to control the "rights of individuals," you haven't been watching the show for the last 140 years, or so.
I won't bother to look up the law, but I think it's safe to say that Congresses ability to regulate mergers between airlines easily falls under the Constitution's Commerce Clause. M/B is constitutional. I'd venture to say its not even a gray area and fairly cut and dry.
I've never even heard of anyone challenging the constitutionality of it anyway. So, I was wondering where that came from and if it was you.
Does M/B require integration? Of course, that would be up to the judge to decide and to be honest with you, a lower court judge probably wouldn't know. If things were moving in a way that had irreversible consequences, such as a selling of assets, he would probably grant an injunction. Eventually, some judicial body -- maybe even the Supreme Court -- would look to interpret the law by looking to see what the legislative intent was when they passed it and they would do so by pulling the Congressional transcripts. I'm not going to look it up, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that Senators McCaskill and Bond had the most to say. From that, they will decide if M/B is violated, then rule accordingly.
What they would decide is anyone's guess, but it doesn't look like it will happen anytime soon though.
Sorry to get so deep on the issue. I just wanted to know where you were coming from.
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