But I will say its like parents and students. If I am an aspiring professional pilot and am looking at current professional piolts as mentors and examples its like you telling your child dont curse and then he hears you cursing out the convience store worker. "Do as I say and not as I do" I come from the miitary where we follow standards plain and simple.

 

Guys,

There are times when "by the book" operations just can't happen due to the nature of the circumstances. I think the 99% of piltos out there try to do their best when they fly to remain standard.

But when you're flying the fifth leg of the day and can't remember the ATIS ID, you sometimes may have to get by with "We have the info." After all- it might be the 7th or 8th ATIS that you've copied.

Same thing goes for busy frequencies. If I had a dollar for every time I read back an abbreviated clearance at Ohare, I could at least by a few steak dinners. How about when ground control is so busy that you can't even get a readback in? It happens- are you going to sit there and wait to readback? (All the while holding up the works, until eventually ground yells at you or loses you in the shuffle?)

Hell- I can think of at least 5 times when I've cleared a runway at ORD (Usually 4 right), and tower tells us "Join delta, contact ground." When we flip to ground, they're so busy that we make it all the way to the gate without ever talking to anybody except for ramp control. It happens (and more often than you think).

Per the AIM, you're supposed to stop at the other side of the hold line, and wait for ground. If you did that at ORD, you'd probably end up sending somebody around, not to mention getting reamed.

Relax. Most folks are standard, but there are times when due to whatever reason, something that isn't exactly as the AIM recommends slips out.

As for foreign pilots and their situational awareness, when other countries start controlling 100% in English, then I'll worry more about their ability to understand what I'm saying. Fly up to Quebec and you'll understand what I mean.

 

I find that hard to believe. If a controller can't adapt to a simple thing like that, I don't know that I want him/her to be vectoring me around other traffic.

 

Despite some of the more seasoned pilots here trying to share a little bit of knowledge of the real world it seems like some of you refuse to believe that there is a world outside of the rule book. Most pilots here don't want to engage in debate, so if you younger guys choose to disregard the advice, so be it. Ironically, the CFIs that many of you mention screaming at you for your brevity, are today flying into New York as new regional pilots wondering how they are going to get a word in with the controller. Some don't realize how hot the fire is until they get close enough to feel it! On a funnier note: Inbound to Houston last night and asked the approach controller for runway 27 instead of the usual 26L or 26R as it was closer to our destination gate. She happily approved our request and I said to her " I wish it were always that easy" she replied, "I am". The whole frequency got a laugh out of that. It wasn't in the rule book but we all survived the flight and got a laugh out of it as well.

 

I have heard 10 minutes of confusion on the ground in PEK just because a pilot preceeded his request with "any chance of". Personally, I'm pretty impressed they learn as much English as they do, so I don't try to confuse them by saying "oh" when I mean "zero".

Again, pilots are contributing to letting FAA get away with things they shouldn't. I am not going to say that I haven't cut things short myself from time to time, but I am going to say that, in the end, we are only hurting ourselves, and the controllers, by doing that. In the end, the ones that will take the hit for any mistakes made will be those at the pointy end and those on the other end of the radio. It's real easy to cast blame at that long table, and I don't want to be the guy with the glass of water answering questions for 20 or so people who are second guessing every breath you took on the flight.

There are a lot of cowboys out there, and in my younger days in the airline world, I'd have been saying the same things they are. Live and learn.

Oh, and for the pilot that said you're supposed to stop short of the line when exiting the runway, you might want to review those books again...

 

Damn, I do that sometimes...

I also once started a call with "Uhhh, anyway...". Needless to say not standard phraseology.

 

N6724G,

I think you probably get the idea that abberviated readbacks and requests are essential in busy airspace. Sometimes it is safer to readback less than is legally required, even though the rules were made for safety. Ironic, eh? The bottom line is, following rules no matter what shows a lack of perspective and in the world of civil aviation, safety of flight is the number one priority. There are legal provisions that allow you to deviate from any FAR to ensure safety.

But, I don't think you were originally picking a bone with pilots talking to O'hare ground control. Don't let the responses on this thread fool you, nobody says "one point three" because its quicker. A lot of the slang you hear is said because they people saying it don't want to be perceived as anal buy their peers, or because they think it sounds cooler than "one thousand three hundred" or "thirteen hundrend."

All you pilots out there who slammed N6724G know that In uncongested airspace there are plenty of pilots you have no regard for professionalism on the radio. In fact, your argument that a newbie like him wouldn't understand the workings of busy terminal areas because of his lack of experience actually makes your responses a bit irrelevant. If he's never been in this kind of airspace, then he obviously isn't talking about the abbreviation on those freqs, but rather the slang used on less congested freqs. I guess just the usual forum mob mentallity. For some reason airline pilots, especially regional guys seem to get a real kick out of flaming GA folks.

CALcapt, usually you're pretty wise and conservative about outright bashing people. I'm guessing all the newhires and their, newguy/probation/by the book arrogance may be getting to you.

 

N6724G-

Look man, don't ask a question if you already know the answer you want to hear. There are a lot of very experianced guys giving you their take on the way they need to get the job done, take it as a learning experiance. It seems like you just wanted a bunch of guys to pat you on the back and agree with you. But that's not always the way it goes.

 

N6724G-

With respect to your comment:
"I come from the military where we follow standards plain and simple."

Be careful with statements like that. A lot of guys on here are current or former military pilots (including myself), and if even one of them completely agrees with that statement with regard to flying I'd imagine his pants are on fire right about now.

The fact of the matter is we all do our best to get the job done as safely as possible. With experience comes the ability to determine where the rules sometimes actually impede safety. But make no mistake about it, we take responsibility for our deviations and each and every one of us realize we're the ones that will hang if it goes wrong.

For now it looks like you're on the right track. Know those rules, they will serve you well. Keep asking the questions. I'd just be a little more open to the answers that you get. And hopefully those answering will be a little less hostile.

-P

 

Well said. Our plane has a 10 kt tailwind limit, but I took off one day with tailwinds gusting to 19.