Carl Spackler

The TWA pilots can speak for themselves about what they were assessed to fight ALPA and ultimately beat ALPA. I'm betting the TWA lawyers didn't work for free though.

Carl

cactusmike

Carl, please read the above post as to why the union could not produce a negotiator who could show notes that supported their case. Those notes did not exist, not because they mysteriously "disappeared", but because SnapBack was not negotiated.

I know you dislike ALPA, and you have some very good arguments for your views. However, ALPA is not the root of all evil in this instance, or even for the demise of the old USAir contract. It was the lack of competence of the negotiators, and the ritual infighting between the CLT, DCA, PIT and PHL that did them in.

ALPA National has very little control over an individual airlines internal MEC/LEC politics. It is the fault of the individual pilots at that carrier when they keep reelecting the same flawed individuals. We actually see this now with USAPA. Many of the union officers were heavily involved in ALPA before. You just have a new circus, but you have the same old clowns.

Carl, I agree with you that ALPA has been a flawed entity the past decade and even before then, if truth be known. The failure to adapt to deregulation, the inability to defend the pilot contracts industry wide after 9/11 , the failure to control scope are all ALPA black marks. But there have been some victories as well. One level of safety. The expertise of EF&A in negotiations has been recognized and proven by having independent unions such as APA contract for their services. ALPA air safety and negotiator training is top notch. You may scoff at the last, but if people choose to disregard what they are taught then then is little help for them.

I go back to what we have now at USAPA for evidence. We have negotiators that have no idea what other contracts are in place, here or elsewhere. They have no real numbers to back them up, only recently have they contracted to have a former TWA pilot who is a financial consultant advise them. They are offering up substantial concessions to try and get their Date of Hire seniority list into a contract. Gutting work rules over a single issue is not a great negotiating strategy.

And that is just one committee. Grievance is totally inept, there are over 400 outstanding grievances, almost all from the East because no West grievance ever sees the light of day. Air Safety has been totally politicized to the point where any real safety issue is totally ignored because USAPA simply cannot be taken seriously. Management has no respect for USAPA and that is not good for the line pilot.

LOA93 is a horrible contract. The pay rates alone are a joke. We have a better contract in all respects out West and even the West contract is below industry standards right now. If anyone out West is celebrating this loss for USAPA it is simply because we want them to wake up out East and look at the lies USAPA promulgates. They have not been correct on any issue so far and their credibility with the East pilot group should be totally shot.

Once Judge Silver rules on the Declaratory Judgement in February the final nail should be driven into the USAPA coffin. Should USAPA lose that one as well then thee is no valid reason for them to continue down the DOH path. They have had a 5, going on 6 year fence. It is time to get on with it and negotiate a real contract, with section 22 based on the Nicolau Award.

OccupyRestSeat

Amazing how my DALPA waterboys have set up shop in this thread. Some even have the stones to spin the ALPA/TWA debacle into a net positive for ALPA. Smacks of desperation, lack of integrity, or incompetence. Or all of the above.

eaglefly

ALPA is "flawed" ?

Didn't they just get their hats handed to them for yet ANOTHER blatant demonstration of faliure to properly represent their pilots ?

Is it true there was actually a demonstration of deliberate destruction of evidence unfavorable to them as well as a conspiracy to cover that up ?

If so, I'd say ALPA a bit past the term "flawed", eh ?

cactusmike

Yes, flawed. That term is valid. I am not an ALPA apologist. The TWA debacle was another in a long list of failures by ALPA. The Pan Am/Delta deal that benefitted junior A300 captains was another. With all that, USAPA is worse.

justjack

"Once Judge Silver rules on the Declaratory Judgement in February the final nail should be driven into the USAPA coffin. Should USAPA lose that one as well then thee is no valid reason for them to continue down the DOH path. They have had a 5, going on 6 year fence. It is time to get on with it and negotiate a real contract, with section 22 based on the Nicolau Award."

Sure- as long as Parker makes an offer that the East can't refuse, one that makes up for NIC. Ruling or no ruling- the contract still has to be voted on.

Carl Spackler

Yes. There was destruction of computers, hard drives and servers that related to TWA. Their response in court as to why they did it was that they didn't know they shouldn't have destroyed all the electronic media. It left absolutely no evidence for the TWA guys to use against ALPA...except for one oversight. There was a single laptop that wasn't destroyed and the TWA guys found it. That single laptop still had all the data that was previously destroyed on the other computers and servers. Had that laptop not been discovered, it would likely have been a very different result for the TWA pilots.

Carl

tsquare

ummmmmmm what??????

shoelu

Every word of this law was in fact complied with. The amendment specifically states that you proceed to arbitration if no negotiated settlement is reached. If you feel that an integration of two corporate entities should be forced after an acquisition, you will need to change a lot more U.S. laws than just B/M.

Timbo

As it was explained to me, by some Pan Am 727 Shuttle pilots I was on a layover with, shortly after the merger;

Before the DAL/PA merger, most of the Pan Am senior guys thought Delta would surely buy the South American routes and 747's, and the 727 Shuttle ops. As one PA guy said, "Nobody thought Delta wanted the Atlantic routes, That's what put us into Bankruptcy!"

So some of the more senior guys jumped off the A300 to get onto the 747, hoping they would be picked up, while some of the other guys were jumping onto the 727 NY-BOS-DC shuttle. The pilots taken by DAL were not in seniority order, they were who ever was on what ever equipment DAL bought. Some junior guys on the A300 came over, while more senior guys on the 747 didn't.

Since DAL bought the Trans Atlantic routes, and the A300's, and the Shuttle, only those pilots came over...BUT...there was talk that as soon as some of their ALPA guys found out Delta was going to buy the A300, not the 747, they quickly "Bid" onto to the A300.

You'll have to find a Pan Am guy to get "The Rest of the Story".