Air Tran 717's reported to go to Delta
04-05-2012, 06:51 AM
#501
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
An article on the topic of the problem Airbus and Boeing are having moving their used jet inventories:
Fears Of An Aircraft Order Bubble | AVIATION WEEK
It's no different than your local OEM car dealership. When I bought my last car I had a choice, I could buy a new one for $7K off sticker with 2% financing with all of the stuff I wanted for the same price as a 1 year old one with 18,000 miles on it with all of the stuff I wanted. Which one would you buy?
Now, what does that mean for SWA-DAL 717 deal and the supposed Airbus A320 deal?
One thing we know is Delta has taken MD90s. If you grab a bunch of MD88 replacements, does that mean we orphan the MD90s again? Maybe not, it'll still be a sizable fleet for the 90s, probably still a bunch of 88s and hey why not add 717s on the low end? There's nothing saying you can't have both.
If the deal is for 319s, take em', which to me means no 717s.
But if the 717 deal is what we think, a trade for something we don't need for something we'd take in exchange for maybe some more benefits for us, then any A320/319 deal would need to best that, at least I'd assume so.
Or can you have them both? The 717 situation is unique, Airbus' on the open market are not. If you get a good Airbus deal why not take the unique 717 deal?
Fears Of An Aircraft Order Bubble | AVIATION WEEK
It's no different than your local OEM car dealership. When I bought my last car I had a choice, I could buy a new one for $7K off sticker with 2% financing with all of the stuff I wanted for the same price as a 1 year old one with 18,000 miles on it with all of the stuff I wanted. Which one would you buy?
Now, what does that mean for SWA-DAL 717 deal and the supposed Airbus A320 deal?
One thing we know is Delta has taken MD90s. If you grab a bunch of MD88 replacements, does that mean we orphan the MD90s again? Maybe not, it'll still be a sizable fleet for the 90s, probably still a bunch of 88s and hey why not add 717s on the low end? There's nothing saying you can't have both.
If the deal is for 319s, take em', which to me means no 717s.
But if the 717 deal is what we think, a trade for something we don't need for something we'd take in exchange for maybe some more benefits for us, then any A320/319 deal would need to best that, at least I'd assume so.
Or can you have them both? The 717 situation is unique, Airbus' on the open market are not. If you get a good Airbus deal why not take the unique 717 deal?
04-05-2012, 07:01 AM
#502
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 840
Originally Posted by n9810f
The Airbus rumor is interesting. I understand that Airbus has a real problem with about a years worth (give or take some months) of current model 320 series that need to be sold before the NEO - they can't sell the inventory is what I heard.
04-05-2012, 07:13 AM
#503
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Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,522
Originally Posted by firstmob
What s the airbus rumor?
04-05-2012, 07:24 AM
#504
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
FYP
By Andrew Compart
Pinnacle Airlines will be relying primarily on 50-seat regional jets to carry it out of bankruptcy and until at least July 2022, when its newly revised contract to operate them for Delta Air Lines expires, even though the 50-seater market is shrinking and has a long-term future that is suspect at best.
That might not be the best foundation on which to build a future, but it may be the best option for the nearer-term survival of Pinnacle, the parent company for regional carriers Pinnacle Airlines, Colgan Air and Mesaba Airlines, or buy it time to transition to bigger aircraft. Memphis, Tenn.-based Pinnacle says in its bankruptcy court filings that its CRJ-200 contract with Delta is one of only two capacity purchase agreements at the regional carrier that are “potentially viable.”
The other is a contract to fly 41 CRJ-900s for Delta—all of which are under Delta lease—that also lasts until July 2022. For Delta, those aircraft are used in a two-class configuration with 76 seats, but can carry 90 passengers in an all-coach configuration.
As part of the restructuring, Pinnacle and Delta reached an agreement on early termination of a separate contract to operate 16 Pinnacle-owned CRJ-900 aircraft for Delta, which will wind down that flying over a five-month period that begins in January 2013.
Pinnacle is not yet saying what it plans to do with those 16 aircraft as they come off the Delta contract, so it is not clear whether they will remain in its fleet. The regional airline, however, definitely is getting rid of all of its Bombardier Q400 and Saab aircraft.
That means, by mid-2013, it might only be flying those 140 50-seat CRJ-200 aircraft and anywhere from 41 to 57 of the CRJ-900s.
The number of CRJ-200s is likely to dwindle between now and 2022: Under the newly revised Delta-Pinnacle capacity purchase agreement on the CRJ-200s, Delta can remove CRJ-200 aircraft from Pinnacle’s fleet, effective on the expiration date of Delta’s financing arrangement for each aircraft.
Pinnacle will not disclose the timing or number. Delta also can reduce the number, on a one-to-one basis, if it reaches agreements with Pinnacle for flying more regional jets with 70 or more seats.
A profitable future for the 50-seaters at Pinnacle depends on what rate Delta pays for them and how much Pinnacle can lower its costs, says Ray Neidl, a Maxim Group analyst.
“There still will be a need for 50-seaters, just not as many as are out there [now],” Neidl says. The 50-seater is not a growth market, he adds, “but at this point in time they [Pinnacle] are just trying to survive. Their fate is in the hands of Delta and, I guess, their employees.”
The newly revised contracts with Delta for the operation of the CRJ-200s and 41 CRJ-900s modifies the rates paid by Delta and eliminates the 2013 rate reset and pilot rate reset, which would have increased the amount of Delta’s payments.
Those pilot rate resets were going to be based on pilot pay raises that Pinnacle is seeking to eliminate under its bankruptcy restructuring. That makes the outcome of Pinnacle’s negotiations with its employee labor unions even more important—or, absent a voluntary deal, a Pinnacle request for the court to allow a rejection of the existing agreements and imposition of new terms.
Tom Wychor, chairman of the Pinnacle Master Executive Council (MEC) for the Air Line Pilots Association, said April 2 that union members “are always willing to sit down with management to find solutions to actual problems,” but he adds that “these solutions need to maintain contract standards that make this a career worth having.”
Pinnacle is planning to meet with members of the MEC next week.
Photo: airteamimages.com
Pinnacle To Rely On Small Jets For Survival | AVIATION WEEK
Pinnacle Airlines will be relying primarily on 50-seat regional jets to carry it out of bankruptcy and until at least July 2022, when its newly revised contract to operate them for Delta Air Lines expires, even though the 50-seater market is shrinking and has a long-term future that is suspect at best.
That might not be the best foundation on which to build a future, but it may be the best option for the nearer-term survival of Pinnacle, the parent company for regional carriers Pinnacle Airlines, Colgan Air and Mesaba Airlines, or buy it time to transition to bigger aircraft. Memphis, Tenn.-based Pinnacle says in its bankruptcy court filings that its CRJ-200 contract with Delta is one of only two capacity purchase agreements at the regional carrier that are “potentially viable.”
The other is a contract to fly 41 CRJ-900s for Delta—all of which are under Delta lease—that also lasts until July 2022. For Delta, those aircraft are used in a two-class configuration with 76 seats, but can carry 90 passengers in an all-coach configuration.
As part of the restructuring, Pinnacle and Delta reached an agreement on early termination of a separate contract to operate 16 Pinnacle-owned CRJ-900 aircraft for Delta, which will wind down that flying over a five-month period that begins in January 2013.
Pinnacle is not yet saying what it plans to do with those 16 aircraft as they come off the Delta contract, so it is not clear whether they will remain in its fleet. The regional airline, however, definitely is getting rid of all of its Bombardier Q400 and Saab aircraft.
That means, by mid-2013, it might only be flying those 140 50-seat CRJ-200 aircraft and anywhere from 41 to 57 of the CRJ-900s.
The number of CRJ-200s is likely to dwindle between now and 2022: Under the newly revised Delta-Pinnacle capacity purchase agreement on the CRJ-200s, Delta can remove CRJ-200 aircraft from Pinnacle’s fleet, effective on the expiration date of Delta’s financing arrangement for each aircraft.
Pinnacle will not disclose the timing or number. Delta also can reduce the number, on a one-to-one basis, if it reaches agreements with Pinnacle for flying more regional jets with 70 or more seats.
A profitable future for the 50-seaters at Pinnacle depends on what rate Delta pays for them and how much Pinnacle can lower its costs, says Ray Neidl, a Maxim Group analyst.
“There still will be a need for 50-seaters, just not as many as are out there [now],” Neidl says. The 50-seater is not a growth market, he adds, “but at this point in time they [Pinnacle] are just trying to survive. Their fate is in the hands of Delta and, I guess, their employees.”
The newly revised contracts with Delta for the operation of the CRJ-200s and 41 CRJ-900s modifies the rates paid by Delta and eliminates the 2013 rate reset and pilot rate reset, which would have increased the amount of Delta’s payments.
Those pilot rate resets were going to be based on pilot pay raises that Pinnacle is seeking to eliminate under its bankruptcy restructuring. That makes the outcome of Pinnacle’s negotiations with its employee labor unions even more important—or, absent a voluntary deal, a Pinnacle request for the court to allow a rejection of the existing agreements and imposition of new terms.
Tom Wychor, chairman of the Pinnacle Master Executive Council (MEC) for the Air Line Pilots Association, said April 2 that union members “are always willing to sit down with management to find solutions to actual problems,” but he adds that “these solutions need to maintain contract standards that make this a career worth having.”
Pinnacle is planning to meet with members of the MEC next week.
Photo: airteamimages.com
Pinnacle To Rely On Small Jets For Survival | AVIATION WEEK
04-05-2012, 07:29 AM
#505
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I don't find anything in that article at all encouraging for mainline DAL. (And for the Pinnacle guys reading this, I am not celebrating your plight at all.. I sincerely wish you all the best. Bankruptcy really really sucks)
And as a mod, ACL.. why did you post this in the 717 thread?
And as a mod, ACL.. why did you post this in the 717 thread?
04-05-2012, 08:25 AM
#506
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Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by tsquare
I don't find anything in that article at all encouraging for mainline DAL. (And for the Pinnacle guys reading this, I am not celebrating your plight at all.. I sincerely wish you all the best. Bankruptcy really really sucks)
And as a mod, ACL.. why did you post this in the 717 thread?
And as a mod, ACL.. why did you post this in the 717 thread?
04-05-2012, 08:47 AM
#508
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Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
I saw an article on a "analyst" who thinks it is foolish and that a refinery would be a loss. Well it might be a loser against the "open market", but all DAL would need for it to do is produce and ship Jet A for a cheaper price than other refineries sell it to DAL!
They would sell to the open market, but the margins at 7% of the cost of a gallon (approx. $3.00) would be in the range of $.21/gal....
Even if it costs DAL $0.15/gal. more than the normal industry rates due to the small scale, that is still a cash flow positive endeavor for the company plus any revenue from other distillates that would be produced as a by-product.
Not even sure DAL will get the winning bid, but it is an interesting proposition.
They would sell to the open market, but the margins at 7% of the cost of a gallon (approx. $3.00) would be in the range of $.21/gal....
Even if it costs DAL $0.15/gal. more than the normal industry rates due to the small scale, that is still a cash flow positive endeavor for the company plus any revenue from other distillates that would be produced as a by-product.
Not even sure DAL will get the winning bid, but it is an interesting proposition.
04-05-2012, 10:49 AM
#509
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by contrails
Do what I do: always have at least three screens opened to this forum. 
My problem was it was on a Iphone and while I was shopping and talking on the phone to another pilot.
Multitasking fail.
04-05-2012, 10:51 AM
#510
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by shiznit
I saw an article on a "analyst" who thinks it is foolish and that a refinery would be a loss. Well it might be a loser against the "open market", but all DAL would need for it to do is produce and ship Jet A for a cheaper price than other refineries sell it to DAL!
They would sell to the open market, but the margins at 7% of the cost of a gallon (approx. $3.00) would be in the range of $.21/gal....
Even if it costs DAL $0.15/gal. more than the normal industry rates due to the small scale, that is still a cash flow positive endeavor for the company plus any revenue from other distillates that would be produced as a by-product.
Not even sure DAL will get the winning bid, but it is an interesting proposition.
They would sell to the open market, but the margins at 7% of the cost of a gallon (approx. $3.00) would be in the range of $.21/gal....
Even if it costs DAL $0.15/gal. more than the normal industry rates due to the small scale, that is still a cash flow positive endeavor for the company plus any revenue from other distillates that would be produced as a by-product.
Not even sure DAL will get the winning bid, but it is an interesting proposition.
It is currently about 2.2 billion a year in profit or reduction in fuel costs depending on how you look at it.
They are perplexed because it has never been done. If someone can it is RA, and this board. They have the financial backing in NYC to get it done, and it really is progressive.
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