DL to get new contract soon
04-29-2012, 09:28 PM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A320
Posts: 1,347
I'm glad to see a raise possible for Delta. First I've heard of it. While we may quibble about the final amounts it does seem we've finally put this decade of awful behind us and are starting to reap some benefits.
Last edited by labbats; 04-29-2012 at 09:41 PM.
04-29-2012, 09:31 PM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,839
Heyas,
First, don't listen to your 'buddy'. I dont care if they are a widebody captain, a line check guy, a chief pilot, or Queen of the Macy's Parade. Nobody except the Star Chamber knows anything at this point, and that includes the LEC reps (unless they are in the Star Chamber, and most aren't).
Second, the scope to pay issue is a tricky one. I think it's fair to assume that scope is for sale, at least on some level or form, and it's just a question of how much cash is required.
The question, at this point, becomes is the company willing to pay the price. They might get the votes required to give up scope for a %100 pay raise, but the chances that the company is willing to pay that price are probably pretty slim.
Nu
First, don't listen to your 'buddy'. I dont care if they are a widebody captain, a line check guy, a chief pilot, or Queen of the Macy's Parade. Nobody except the Star Chamber knows anything at this point, and that includes the LEC reps (unless they are in the Star Chamber, and most aren't).
Second, the scope to pay issue is a tricky one. I think it's fair to assume that scope is for sale, at least on some level or form, and it's just a question of how much cash is required.
The question, at this point, becomes is the company willing to pay the price. They might get the votes required to give up scope for a %100 pay raise, but the chances that the company is willing to pay that price are probably pretty slim.
Nu
04-29-2012, 09:37 PM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Originally Posted by Zoomie
Hey guys. Good to see some discussion here. The fact that this thread already has 7 pages in a few hours lends me to believe that some others have heard similar rumors.
The rumor was heard from a buddy of mine on a DL flight while jumpseating.
The rumor I heard, to clarify was 11% for year 1, another 11% for year 2, and then just inflationary pay raises for year 3-5. It's probably just BS, but just what I've heard. I didn't hear anything else about work rules or scope or anything, so if anyone else has heard anything, that would be nice to hear.
I would also like to state a few facts for those crying foul at this rumor, just to lend a little bit of reality to things.
1) If you do the math, an 11% pay raise(for 2 consecutive years) on DLs current rates would be industry leading above every airline, including UPS, FDX, and SWA. The 737 rates would be even with SWA 737 rates on the CA side and higher than the 737 rates on the FO side. [This is using math taken from the derived SWA pay rates on this site] The widebody rates would be higher than what UPS and FDX currently have. So those of you that are balking at the pay rates, just realize that your balking at an industry leading pay scale. Please note, that I realize that payrates aren't everything, I'm just throwing out some of the reality of people throwing a BS flag out there.
2) Here's another fact. SWA, FDX, and UPS have never really been the one's pushing the bar higher, but we can thank them in this industry for holding the line. Does anyone out here think that without the UAL and DL contracts circa 2000 that any of the pay and workrules that these carriers have would be near what they are now? However, I will say that if these 3 carriers(SWA, FDX, and SWA) hadn't been successful after 9/11, we can be sure that we wouldn't even be close to what we're talking about today.
3) Another point is that as high as UAL and DL contracts used to be, one must also be confronted with the reality that the top of the industry is FDX and UPS right now. Sure, the current top of the industry is a joke when you compare them to what the industry used to pay. Adjust those rates for inflation and its even more insulting.
Those are some realities on pay rates ALONE. Please don't take this the wrong way as me trying to persuade anyone that we should settle for these rates, but I just wanted to throw in a little dose of reality to the discussion. I don't work for DL as I'm at another airline anyway.
Scope selling is still a no in most peoples minds(as it should be), so any deal that gives any outsourcing away would be a show stopper.
I do think its a good sign if the rumor is true, just based on pay rates alone. This would mean DL management is willing to return DLs payrates to the top of the industry 6 months before the contract is amendable, not 3 years past amendable. Just something to chew on.
The question here IMO:
What does management want?
(As most airline management has never thrown a bone to a union without wanting something in return)
The rumor was heard from a buddy of mine on a DL flight while jumpseating.
The rumor I heard, to clarify was 11% for year 1, another 11% for year 2, and then just inflationary pay raises for year 3-5. It's probably just BS, but just what I've heard. I didn't hear anything else about work rules or scope or anything, so if anyone else has heard anything, that would be nice to hear.
I would also like to state a few facts for those crying foul at this rumor, just to lend a little bit of reality to things.
1) If you do the math, an 11% pay raise(for 2 consecutive years) on DLs current rates would be industry leading above every airline, including UPS, FDX, and SWA. The 737 rates would be even with SWA 737 rates on the CA side and higher than the 737 rates on the FO side. [This is using math taken from the derived SWA pay rates on this site] The widebody rates would be higher than what UPS and FDX currently have. So those of you that are balking at the pay rates, just realize that your balking at an industry leading pay scale. Please note, that I realize that payrates aren't everything, I'm just throwing out some of the reality of people throwing a BS flag out there.
2) Here's another fact. SWA, FDX, and UPS have never really been the one's pushing the bar higher, but we can thank them in this industry for holding the line. Does anyone out here think that without the UAL and DL contracts circa 2000 that any of the pay and workrules that these carriers have would be near what they are now? However, I will say that if these 3 carriers(SWA, FDX, and SWA) hadn't been successful after 9/11, we can be sure that we wouldn't even be close to what we're talking about today.
3) Another point is that as high as UAL and DL contracts used to be, one must also be confronted with the reality that the top of the industry is FDX and UPS right now. Sure, the current top of the industry is a joke when you compare them to what the industry used to pay. Adjust those rates for inflation and its even more insulting.
Those are some realities on pay rates ALONE. Please don't take this the wrong way as me trying to persuade anyone that we should settle for these rates, but I just wanted to throw in a little dose of reality to the discussion. I don't work for DL as I'm at another airline anyway.
Scope selling is still a no in most peoples minds(as it should be), so any deal that gives any outsourcing away would be a show stopper.
I do think its a good sign if the rumor is true, just based on pay rates alone. This would mean DL management is willing to return DLs payrates to the top of the industry 6 months before the contract is amendable, not 3 years past amendable. Just something to chew on.
The question here IMO:
What does management want?
(As most airline management has never thrown a bone to a union without wanting something in return)
Might want to recheck you math and edit this.
Even if true, 11 doesnt do it, unless it is for every year for the next 5 years.
04-29-2012, 10:20 PM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 403
Originally Posted by TheManager
Might want to recheck you math and edit this.
Even if true, 11 doesnt do it, unless it is for every year for the next 5 years.
Even if true, 11 doesnt do it, unless it is for every year for the next 5 years.
Whether that's enough is a different story. That doesn't change the fact that those pay rates would be industry leading (current industry) in every way.
04-30-2012, 12:23 AM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,200
Originally Posted by TheManager
Might want to recheck you math and edit this.
Even if true, 11 doesnt do it, unless it is for every year for the next 5 years.
Even if true, 11 doesnt do it, unless it is for every year for the next 5 years.
$100 x 1.11 = $111
x 1.11 = $123.21
x 1.11 = $136.75
x 1.11 = $151.80
04-30-2012, 02:42 AM
#77
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by Zoomie
Hey guys. Good to see some discussion here. The fact that this thread already has 7 pages in a few hours lends me to believe that some others have heard similar rumors.
The rumor was heard from a buddy of mine on a DL flight while jumpseating.
The rumor I heard, to clarify was 11% for year 1, another 11% for year 2, and then just inflationary pay raises for year 3-5. It's probably just BS, but just what I've heard. I didn't hear anything else about work rules or scope or anything, so if anyone else has heard anything, that would be nice to hear.
I would also like to state a few facts for those crying foul at this rumor, just to lend a little bit of reality to things.
1) If you do the math, an 11% pay raise(for 2 consecutive years) on DLs current rates would be industry leading above every airline, including UPS, FDX, and SWA. The 737 rates would be even with SWA 737 rates on the CA side and higher than the 737 rates on the FO side. [This is using math taken from the derived SWA pay rates on this site] The widebody rates would be higher than what UPS and FDX currently have. So those of you that are balking at the pay rates, just realize that your balking at an industry leading pay scale. Please note, that I realize that payrates aren't everything, I'm just throwing out some of the reality of people throwing a BS flag out there.
2) Here's another fact. SWA, FDX, and UPS have never really been the one's pushing the bar higher, but we can thank them in this industry for holding the line. Does anyone out here think that without the UAL and DL contracts circa 2000 that any of the pay and workrules that these carriers have would be near what they are now? However, I will say that if these 3 carriers(SWA, FDX, and SWA) hadn't been successful after 9/11, we can be sure that we wouldn't even be close to what we're talking about today.
3) Another point is that as high as UAL and DL contracts used to be, one must also be confronted with the reality that the top of the industry is FDX and UPS right now. Sure, the current top of the industry is a joke when you compare them to what the industry used to pay. Adjust those rates for inflation and its even more insulting.
Those are some realities on pay rates ALONE. Please don't take this the wrong way as me trying to persuade anyone that we should settle for these rates, but I just wanted to throw in a little dose of reality to the discussion. I don't work for DL as I'm at another airline anyway.
Scope selling is still a no in most peoples minds(as it should be), so any deal that gives any outsourcing away would be a show stopper.
I do think its a good sign if the rumor is true, just based on pay rates alone. This would mean DL management is willing to return DLs payrates to the top of the industry 6 months before the contract is amendable, not 3 years past amendable. Just something to chew on.
The question here IMO:
What does management want?
(As most airline management has never thrown a bone to a union without wanting something in return)
The rumor was heard from a buddy of mine on a DL flight while jumpseating.
The rumor I heard, to clarify was 11% for year 1, another 11% for year 2, and then just inflationary pay raises for year 3-5. It's probably just BS, but just what I've heard. I didn't hear anything else about work rules or scope or anything, so if anyone else has heard anything, that would be nice to hear.
I would also like to state a few facts for those crying foul at this rumor, just to lend a little bit of reality to things.
1) If you do the math, an 11% pay raise(for 2 consecutive years) on DLs current rates would be industry leading above every airline, including UPS, FDX, and SWA. The 737 rates would be even with SWA 737 rates on the CA side and higher than the 737 rates on the FO side. [This is using math taken from the derived SWA pay rates on this site] The widebody rates would be higher than what UPS and FDX currently have. So those of you that are balking at the pay rates, just realize that your balking at an industry leading pay scale. Please note, that I realize that payrates aren't everything, I'm just throwing out some of the reality of people throwing a BS flag out there.
2) Here's another fact. SWA, FDX, and UPS have never really been the one's pushing the bar higher, but we can thank them in this industry for holding the line. Does anyone out here think that without the UAL and DL contracts circa 2000 that any of the pay and workrules that these carriers have would be near what they are now? However, I will say that if these 3 carriers(SWA, FDX, and SWA) hadn't been successful after 9/11, we can be sure that we wouldn't even be close to what we're talking about today.
3) Another point is that as high as UAL and DL contracts used to be, one must also be confronted with the reality that the top of the industry is FDX and UPS right now. Sure, the current top of the industry is a joke when you compare them to what the industry used to pay. Adjust those rates for inflation and its even more insulting.
Those are some realities on pay rates ALONE. Please don't take this the wrong way as me trying to persuade anyone that we should settle for these rates, but I just wanted to throw in a little dose of reality to the discussion. I don't work for DL as I'm at another airline anyway.
Scope selling is still a no in most peoples minds(as it should be), so any deal that gives any outsourcing away would be a show stopper.
I do think its a good sign if the rumor is true, just based on pay rates alone. This would mean DL management is willing to return DLs payrates to the top of the industry 6 months before the contract is amendable, not 3 years past amendable. Just something to chew on.
The question here IMO:
What does management want?
(As most airline management has never thrown a bone to a union without wanting something in return)
Here's another fact? No it isn't
What does management want? IDK, but I'd appreciate it if you did not try to manage my expectations. Oh yeah, and get your "facts" straight...please.
04-30-2012, 02:46 AM
#78
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by Bill Lumberg
How about 22% the first year, and then 4 or 5% per year after that? That would be alot more digestable.
Bill;
Bad idea. It is not just about payrates and 22% is lame, your lifestyle has just been adjusted. You are cheap.
04-30-2012, 02:46 AM
#79
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by scambo1
11% payraise - no
Here's another fact? No it isn't
What does management want? IDK, but I'd appreciate it if you did not try to manage my expectations. Oh yeah, and get your "facts" straight...please.
Here's another fact? No it isn't
What does management want? IDK, but I'd appreciate it if you did not try to manage my expectations. Oh yeah, and get your "facts" straight...please.
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