DL to get new contract soon
04-30-2012, 04:00 AM
#81
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
For some reason, APC wouldn't let me edit my own post.
My point on SWA's viability is not PAYRATES.
It IS W-2s for small narrowbodies.
Dead horse: Without their work rules, SWA's payrates are a meaningless metric.
My point on SWA's viability is not PAYRATES.
It IS W-2s for small narrowbodies.
Dead horse: Without their work rules, SWA's payrates are a meaningless metric.
04-30-2012, 04:02 AM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2011
Posts: 495
Originally Posted by Sink r8
One thing that always impresses me about the American pilots, especially now: here they are in BK, and except for a couple of TOD nominees, none of them are arguing on APC. I don't know where they post, but they avoid embarassing themselves in public.
If it wasn't for the East and West, we'd look really foolish.
If it wasn't for the East and West, we'd look really foolish.
I kid I kid
04-30-2012, 04:37 AM
#85
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 7ERB, no M88, no 7ER, no A320, NEXT!
Posts: 397
Watch out here boys, there is a whole group of pilots at the top of our list who probably thought they would never see another raise due to the historical pace of negotiations. I think part of managements strategy here is to get this done quickly so that when these guys see that they can get a raise for the last 2 years of their career, they will jump on it, scope be damned...
or maybe I am just paranoid
or maybe I am just paranoid
04-30-2012, 05:04 AM
#86
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
Originally Posted by Superdad
Watch out here boys, there is a whole group of pilots at the top of our list who probably thought they would never see another raise due to the historical pace of negotiations. I think part of managements strategy here is to get this done quickly so that when these guys see that they can get a raise for the last 2 years of their career, they will jump on it, scope be damned...
or maybe I am just paranoid
or maybe I am just paranoid
04-30-2012, 05:12 AM
#87
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by Superdad
Watch out here boys, there is a whole group of pilots at the top of our list who probably thought they would never see another raise due to the historical pace of negotiations. I think part of managements strategy here is to get this done quickly so that when these guys see that they can get a raise for the last 2 years of their career, they will jump on it, scope be damned...
or maybe I am just paranoid
or maybe I am just paranoid
My opinion only: Demographically, our list is significantly different than in years past. Despite the size of ATL, it is no longer the center of the DAL universe. It seems like our reps largely "get it." Any TA has to pass through their screen before it gets to us.
That said, for me: Nope to scope, yes to DAL.
I expect guys at the top of the list to vote the money, but that's okay.
04-30-2012, 05:16 AM
#88
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by Zoomie
Hey guys. Good to see some discussion here. The fact that this thread already has 7 pages in a few hours lends me to believe that some others have heard similar rumors.
The rumor was heard from a buddy of mine on a DL flight while jumpseating.
The rumor I heard, to clarify was 11% for year 1, another 11% for year 2, and then just inflationary pay raises for year 3-5. It's probably just BS, but just what I've heard. I didn't hear anything else about work rules or scope or anything, so if anyone else has heard anything, that would be nice to hear.
I would also like to state a few facts for those crying foul at this rumor, just to lend a little bit of reality to things.
1) If you do the math, an 11% pay raise(for 2 consecutive years) on DLs current rates would be industry leading above every airline, including UPS, FDX, and SWA. The 737 rates would be even with SWA 737 rates on the CA side and higher than the 737 rates on the FO side. [This is using math taken from the derived SWA pay rates on this site] The widebody rates would be higher than what UPS and FDX currently have. So those of you that are balking at the pay rates, just realize that your balking at an industry leading pay scale. Please note, that I realize that payrates aren't everything, I'm just throwing out some of the reality of people throwing a BS flag out there.
2) Here's another fact. SWA, FDX, and UPS have never really been the one's pushing the bar higher, but we can thank them in this industry for holding the line. Does anyone out here think that without the UAL and DL contracts circa 2000 that any of the pay and workrules that these carriers have would be near what they are now? However, I will say that if these 3 carriers(SWA, FDX, and SWA) hadn't been successful after 9/11, we can be sure that we wouldn't even be close to what we're talking about today.
3) Another point is that as high as UAL and DL contracts used to be, one must also be confronted with the reality that the top of the industry is FDX and UPS right now. Sure, the current top of the industry is a joke when you compare them to what the industry used to pay. Adjust those rates for inflation and its even more insulting.
Those are some realities on pay rates ALONE. Please don't take this the wrong way as me trying to persuade anyone that we should settle for these rates, but I just wanted to throw in a little dose of reality to the discussion. I don't work for DL as I'm at another airline anyway.
Scope selling is still a no in most peoples minds(as it should be), so any deal that gives any outsourcing away would be a show stopper.
I do think its a good sign if the rumor is true, just based on pay rates alone. This would mean DL management is willing to return DLs payrates to the top of the industry 6 months before the contract is amendable, not 3 years past amendable. Just something to chew on.
The question here IMO:
What does management want?
(As most airline management has never thrown a bone to a union without wanting something in return)
The rumor was heard from a buddy of mine on a DL flight while jumpseating.
The rumor I heard, to clarify was 11% for year 1, another 11% for year 2, and then just inflationary pay raises for year 3-5. It's probably just BS, but just what I've heard. I didn't hear anything else about work rules or scope or anything, so if anyone else has heard anything, that would be nice to hear.
I would also like to state a few facts for those crying foul at this rumor, just to lend a little bit of reality to things.
1) If you do the math, an 11% pay raise(for 2 consecutive years) on DLs current rates would be industry leading above every airline, including UPS, FDX, and SWA. The 737 rates would be even with SWA 737 rates on the CA side and higher than the 737 rates on the FO side. [This is using math taken from the derived SWA pay rates on this site] The widebody rates would be higher than what UPS and FDX currently have. So those of you that are balking at the pay rates, just realize that your balking at an industry leading pay scale. Please note, that I realize that payrates aren't everything, I'm just throwing out some of the reality of people throwing a BS flag out there.
2) Here's another fact. SWA, FDX, and UPS have never really been the one's pushing the bar higher, but we can thank them in this industry for holding the line. Does anyone out here think that without the UAL and DL contracts circa 2000 that any of the pay and workrules that these carriers have would be near what they are now? However, I will say that if these 3 carriers(SWA, FDX, and SWA) hadn't been successful after 9/11, we can be sure that we wouldn't even be close to what we're talking about today.
3) Another point is that as high as UAL and DL contracts used to be, one must also be confronted with the reality that the top of the industry is FDX and UPS right now. Sure, the current top of the industry is a joke when you compare them to what the industry used to pay. Adjust those rates for inflation and its even more insulting.
Those are some realities on pay rates ALONE. Please don't take this the wrong way as me trying to persuade anyone that we should settle for these rates, but I just wanted to throw in a little dose of reality to the discussion. I don't work for DL as I'm at another airline anyway.
Scope selling is still a no in most peoples minds(as it should be), so any deal that gives any outsourcing away would be a show stopper.
I do think its a good sign if the rumor is true, just based on pay rates alone. This would mean DL management is willing to return DLs payrates to the top of the industry 6 months before the contract is amendable, not 3 years past amendable. Just something to chew on.
The question here IMO:
What does management want?
(As most airline management has never thrown a bone to a union without wanting something in return)
Food for thought. How about a significant raise at DOS then the first longevity dos step jan 1. Two raises in 6 months. Point is the devil is in the details.
Also I am sure there are a lot of trial balloons being put out there by many parties to gauge reaction.
04-30-2012, 05:23 AM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Scambo/Superdad,
I'll take a certain 747 at his word that he'll hold the line on Scope, because Scope isn't about RJ's anymore. It's also about JV's, production balances, etc. No matter which way you slice this, we have to control our flying. That requires a comprehensive vision on the topic.
So when you say that people won't hold the line, if you mean that people are willing to trade some 76-seaters for other gains (IN SECTION 1), absolutely. If you think people are going to avoid a good contract over a single 76-seater, as one poster did, you're going to be disappointed.
But when you say "hold the line", if you mean that everyone has a stake, and needs to spend a lot of time reading Section 1 language, and that passing a T/A requires a tightening thereof, I think we're all on the same sheet of music.
The Scope Games: coming to a wide-body near you.
I'll take a certain 747 at his word that he'll hold the line on Scope, because Scope isn't about RJ's anymore. It's also about JV's, production balances, etc. No matter which way you slice this, we have to control our flying. That requires a comprehensive vision on the topic.
So when you say that people won't hold the line, if you mean that people are willing to trade some 76-seaters for other gains (IN SECTION 1), absolutely. If you think people are going to avoid a good contract over a single 76-seater, as one poster did, you're going to be disappointed.
But when you say "hold the line", if you mean that everyone has a stake, and needs to spend a lot of time reading Section 1 language, and that passing a T/A requires a tightening thereof, I think we're all on the same sheet of music.
The Scope Games: coming to a wide-body near you.
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