CVG roadshow notes and observations
06-02-2012 | 12:23 PM
#101
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
You missed the point completely. I think management is doing their job just fine, no conspiracy there....they seem to have played this negotiation perfectly from start to finish (if this contract is voted in). From the brilliant "There exists and an opportunity...." hook they introduced, which the ALPA guys have been parroting from the beginning to selling us on giving up more work rules and trading their rotten produce for an orchard that will permanently source flying that given time could have been turned over to the Delta pilot group.
Again, I have no problem with management doing everything they can to win this negotiation. That is what they are paid to do....keep costs down and maintain leverage, never allowing any one group to increase their bargaining power.
Where I have a huge problem is the union that told us to take the time to fill out a survey that would be used as the blueprint for this contract, not following their own rules, keeping the membership in the dark (they still wont release the survey....I will let you guess why) and now using misleading examples to sell us on what THEY think we should really want.
We were told if we could not obtain what the survey reflected we would not rush the process. We would enter into traditional negotiations. Virtually everything they said they would do they have strayed from and imposed their own will over the will of the pilots. That is not representation.
I get it. You are OK with that. You get a few bucks more in your pocket and are willing to take your chances with further erosion of some key work rules and large RJ outsourcing that will stay with us forever for a handful of used 717's. That is your choice.
My prediction; If enough people buy off on what the DALPA marketing group is selling only to be left with a few sweaty dollars in their pocket and unfulfilled promises, this pilot group will finally get what it needs, albeit a little too late to prevent the damage of this contract we will have to live with for a very long time.
Again, I have no problem with management doing everything they can to win this negotiation. That is what they are paid to do....keep costs down and maintain leverage, never allowing any one group to increase their bargaining power.
Where I have a huge problem is the union that told us to take the time to fill out a survey that would be used as the blueprint for this contract, not following their own rules, keeping the membership in the dark (they still wont release the survey....I will let you guess why) and now using misleading examples to sell us on what THEY think we should really want.
We were told if we could not obtain what the survey reflected we would not rush the process. We would enter into traditional negotiations. Virtually everything they said they would do they have strayed from and imposed their own will over the will of the pilots. That is not representation.
I get it. You are OK with that. You get a few bucks more in your pocket and are willing to take your chances with further erosion of some key work rules and large RJ outsourcing that will stay with us forever for a handful of used 717's. That is your choice.
My prediction; If enough people buy off on what the DALPA marketing group is selling only to be left with a few sweaty dollars in their pocket and unfulfilled promises, this pilot group will finally get what it needs, albeit a little too late to prevent the damage of this contract we will have to live with for a very long time.
06-02-2012 | 12:26 PM
#102
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 494
Likes: 20
From: MD88
Jack, I'm not ok with further outsourcing. I don't think this TA does that. First off, 88 717's is a lot more than a handful. Our domestic flying will increase from 52% to over 60% while rj flying decreases from 48% to under 40%. I don't see how that's outsourcing. One thing that will never happen under this TA is what happened to me and hundreds of other pilots that got furloughed in 2001-2002. We were all losing our jobs while the regionals were hiring like crazy. That cannot happen under this TA. The 717's will generate growth at Delta. I am for that. Don't you think Delta will grow in the next 10-15 years? Guess what, as we get larger and add more airplanes and flights the DCI carriers will still be flying 450 airframes.
06-02-2012 | 12:50 PM
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
Likes: 0
Jack, I'm not ok with further outsourcing. I don't think this TA does that. First off, 88 717's is a lot more than a handful. Our domestic flying will increase from 52% to over 60% while rj flying decreases from 48% to under 40%. I don't see how that's outsourcing. One thing that will never happen under this TA is what happened to me and hundreds of other pilots that got furloughed in 2001-2002. We were all losing our jobs while the regionals were hiring like crazy. That cannot happen under this TA. The 717's will generate growth at Delta. I am for that. Don't you think Delta will grow in the next 10-15 years? Guess what, as we get larger and add more airplanes and flights the DCI carriers will still be flying 450 airframes.
I think the current agreement on the table, surrendering work rules and outsourcing 70 more of these (below) is very short sighted. If it is voted in and three years from now you get that gnawing feeling you made a big mistake there will be no recourse. A lot of the guys selling this thing are either senior guys not as affected (many of the DALPA guys here) or dont fully understand the repercussions of giving up more work rules and further reducing QOL options.
06-02-2012 | 01:00 PM
#105
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
Likes: 0
Everybody must take their own path. I get a very bad feeling about where yet another scope sale (don't bother telling me this is not a scope sale) will take us.
06-02-2012 | 01:10 PM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 489
Likes: 0
Come on. Never say never. Force manure will be used once again and the contract will be meaningless. Did you learn nothing from your furlough? Not to mention that management always seems to "find a way" and the response from alpa is usually "we didn't envision that" or "we didn't think they would do it" or my favorite "but we may have lost." Which, by the way, looks like we gave them that one anyway in this TA.
Not only can it possibly happen again but we will have already given them even more 76 seaters via this TA.
And please don't fall for the "carrot" of 717's. If it is in management's best interests to get them, they will get them with or without the TA. Have pilots really not learned from decades of history?
Question: is it written in the ta that 717's will be arriving if the TA passes? I truly don't know. But if it isn't, then all we have are "promises." Promises of an agreement "in nature" or however they phrased the press release.
Management's desire to get rid of 50 seaters is leverage.
I also just cannot understand the willingness to make it more profitable for management to outsource our jobs.
06-02-2012 | 01:22 PM
#107
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,890
Likes: 0
From: 737A
Come on. Never say never. Force manure will be used once again and the contract will be meaningless. Did you learn nothing from your furlough? Not to mention that management always seems to "find a way" and the response from alpa is usually "we didn't envision that" or "we didn't think they would do it" or my favorite "but we may have lost." Which, by the way, looks like we gave them that one anyway in this TA.
Not only can it possibly happen again but we will have already given them even more 76 seaters via this TA.
And please don't fall for the "carrot" of 717's. If it is in management's best interests to get them, they will get them with or without the TA. Have pilots really not learned from decades of history?
Question: is it written in the ta that 717's will be arriving if the TA passes? I truly don't know. But if it isn't, then all we have are "promises." Promises of an agreement "in nature" or however they phrased the press release.
Management's desire to get rid of 50 seaters is leverage.
I also just cannot understand the willingness to make it more profitable for management to outsource our jobs.
Not only can it possibly happen again but we will have already given them even more 76 seaters via this TA.
And please don't fall for the "carrot" of 717's. If it is in management's best interests to get them, they will get them with or without the TA. Have pilots really not learned from decades of history?
Question: is it written in the ta that 717's will be arriving if the TA passes? I truly don't know. But if it isn't, then all we have are "promises." Promises of an agreement "in nature" or however they phrased the press release.
Management's desire to get rid of 50 seaters is leverage.
I also just cannot understand the willingness to make it more profitable for management to outsource our jobs.
06-02-2012 | 01:41 PM
#108
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I don't care what you support. I care about the pilots of Delta Air Lines. I have no "conflict of interest", if it is helpful to Delta Air Lines Pilots then that is all that matters.
The reduction of AS codeshare limits and JV protection are often left out of this discussion and they are an integral part of Section 1 also, but since you are not a stakeholder in the PWA then your concerns have no weight.
The reduction of AS codeshare limits and JV protection are often left out of this discussion and they are an integral part of Section 1 also, but since you are not a stakeholder in the PWA then your concerns have no weight.
These and many more are also "integral" parts of this TA's section 1. But you'll only get them by reading the language yourself...not by attending road shows with certain reps being dis-invited.
Carl
06-02-2012 | 01:43 PM
#109
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
You have to give credit to some of the historians here who predicted:
1. The union would keep the membership in the dark.
2. The union would not follow the direction given to it by its constituents.
3. The union would sell the he11 out of whatever they came up with.
Same old song and dance....
1. The union would keep the membership in the dark.
2. The union would not follow the direction given to it by its constituents.
3. The union would sell the he11 out of whatever they came up with.
Same old song and dance....
Carl
06-02-2012 | 01:49 PM
#110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,673
Likes: 0
From: 7er
Come on. Never say never. Force manure will be used once again and the contract will be meaningless. Did you learn nothing from your furlough? Not to mention that management always seems to "find a way" and the response from alpa is usually "we didn't envision that" or "we didn't think they would do it" or my favorite "but we may have lost." Which, by the way, looks like we gave them that one anyway in this TA.
Not only can it possibly happen again but we will have already given them even more 76 seaters via this TA.
And please don't fall for the "carrot" of 717's. If it is in management's best interests to get them, they will get them with or without the TA. Have pilots really not learned from decades of history?
Question: is it written in the ta that 717's will be arriving if the TA passes? I truly don't know. But if it isn't, then all we have are "promises." Promises of an agreement "in nature" or however they phrased the press release.
Management's desire to get rid of 50 seaters is leverage.
I also just cannot understand the willingness to make it more profitable for management to outsource our jobs.
Not only can it possibly happen again but we will have already given them even more 76 seaters via this TA.
And please don't fall for the "carrot" of 717's. If it is in management's best interests to get them, they will get them with or without the TA. Have pilots really not learned from decades of history?
Question: is it written in the ta that 717's will be arriving if the TA passes? I truly don't know. But if it isn't, then all we have are "promises." Promises of an agreement "in nature" or however they phrased the press release.
Management's desire to get rid of 50 seaters is leverage.
I also just cannot understand the willingness to make it more profitable for management to outsource our jobs.
