CVG roadshow notes and observations
06-03-2012, 05:03 PM
#131
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: CRJ
Posts: 358
Originally Posted by vprMatrix
CVG thanks for the update.
Here is my biggest problem with what you posted:
First there is no way to know or believe that the company would pass on the savings from outsourcing to the us.
Second, I am fundamentally opposed to supplementing my income off the back of other pilots by supporting a whipsaw system with multiple carriers (including other ALPA carriers) fighting for our scraps. I'm actually a little surprised TO admitted publicly that this is what we are doing.
Here is my biggest problem with what you posted:
-Cost of this contract is $420 million. This was vehemently challenged by several in the group, citing the Detroit rep's widely known assertion that this is a cost-neutral contract. Tim stated that the cost-neutral statement was mostly for Wall St., and that a cost neutral claim would have to include the added revenue from both the CRJ900s and the 717s. There would be no other way to get to that number.
-The last thing on the table was more seats on the RJs (Tim said 80 seats; did he mean 82?). The company offered to give all of the projected revenue to us in the form of pay.
-The last thing on the table was more seats on the RJs (Tim said 80 seats; did he mean 82?). The company offered to give all of the projected revenue to us in the form of pay.
Second, I am fundamentally opposed to supplementing my income off the back of other pilots by supporting a whipsaw system with multiple carriers (including other ALPA carriers) fighting for our scraps. I'm actually a little surprised TO admitted publicly that this is what we are doing.
06-03-2012, 05:19 PM
#132
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: 737n/FO
Posts: 667
Originally Posted by sinca3
And this is our biggest problem! If everyone prepared for this Sect. 6 like it was going to mean no paycheck for a month then I am sure most or more would be willing to vote no to try and get the MAXIMUM out of this turd!
If this thing passes by 1% then the company knows that it's all they could have gotten. If it passes by more than 1%, lets say something like 62% in favor and 38% not in favor, we are telling them they gave us too much so in the next Section 6 they will offer even less and try and take even more!
The flip to that is a no vote by 1% and I don't think they would throw all this work away and go it full sect 6 and the contention that ensues. They would tweak it with the bare minimum they think it will then pass by.
If this thing passes by 1% then the company knows that it's all they could have gotten. If it passes by more than 1%, lets say something like 62% in favor and 38% not in favor, we are telling them they gave us too much so in the next Section 6 they will offer even less and try and take even more!
The flip to that is a no vote by 1% and I don't think they would throw all this work away and go it full sect 6 and the contention that ensues. They would tweak it with the bare minimum they think it will then pass by.
06-03-2012, 05:39 PM
#133
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Originally Posted by DAL73n
That's a great point - everyone that says vote (including DALPA) seems to imply that our next offer will be worse. The company is not stupid - they don't want us to work under the current contract or they would have allowed us to continue under full Section 6. I think the current TA can be fixed with some tweaking. For those of you just looking at pay the work rule downgrades (+2 ALV/TLV, +2 Reserve, ALV +15) are going to result in no hiring (with 717 arrival, with retirements) over the 3.5 length of the this contract. If you believe otherwise then vote yes, I don't, I'm tired of moving backwards in my category.
Oh, and the entire thing with managements current plan may result in about 220 total additional pilot positions even if all the 717s come.
06-03-2012, 06:50 PM
#134
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: The Flying Wasp
Posts: 72
I am a 50% voter waiting for a bit more info to sway me. It is easy to get on either bandwagon and hoist the flag. Many arguments on both sides are valid.
The real problem here is the 800 lb gorilla in the room that is the Railway labor act. I honestly believe there is no president that will allow self help, based upon many factors economic and political. That is the fly in the ointment. Management put up a number that hopefully will pass by 51 % by their standards. That is their responsibility and it looks like it was close to target.
Did the MEC get every drop? Not sure.
Will the company sail right into a long sec 6 and dance for 2 years? I wouldn't blame them, that is their job.... and free money.
Will the NMB release us from mediation after 2+ years with a bigger number? Do they care about all the stickers and slogans during this time? not one bit.
I believe AMR/APA proposal with douggie parker says a lot, those boys are screwed and looking for any port in the storm. Seen their scope proposal? scary at best. I don't blame them cause the alternative is much worse.
This goes back to where we may be in 2015 under a traditional sec. 6 dance for 2+ years. The NMB doesnt give a crap what a 767 FO made in 2003.
DPA or ALPA cannot change the fact that the RLA controls our ability to walk away from any deal, pattern bargaining is really tough with most of the industry is in quicksand. Those folks on the NMB look at numbers on a napkin. Is 425 too little, will 700 (million) be too much in 3 years? Under our current PWA a 1% pay raise equals about 20 million/yr.
Tough numbers, but to think we will have a landfall contract on 2014 after mediation (and stickers and slogans) is tough to get my hands around.
RA coughed up 750m to make things work in this merger, UA/CO is gonna fight to even get to this number. I hate it for them but smizek is playing the lorenzo card. Odds are the CO scope will be sold for pay rates in the tune of 300-500 mil which is the number that will be DL +1
The real problem here is the 800 lb gorilla in the room that is the Railway labor act. I honestly believe there is no president that will allow self help, based upon many factors economic and political. That is the fly in the ointment. Management put up a number that hopefully will pass by 51 % by their standards. That is their responsibility and it looks like it was close to target.
Did the MEC get every drop? Not sure.
Will the company sail right into a long sec 6 and dance for 2 years? I wouldn't blame them, that is their job.... and free money.
Will the NMB release us from mediation after 2+ years with a bigger number? Do they care about all the stickers and slogans during this time? not one bit.
I believe AMR/APA proposal with douggie parker says a lot, those boys are screwed and looking for any port in the storm. Seen their scope proposal? scary at best. I don't blame them cause the alternative is much worse.
This goes back to where we may be in 2015 under a traditional sec. 6 dance for 2+ years. The NMB doesnt give a crap what a 767 FO made in 2003.
DPA or ALPA cannot change the fact that the RLA controls our ability to walk away from any deal, pattern bargaining is really tough with most of the industry is in quicksand. Those folks on the NMB look at numbers on a napkin. Is 425 too little, will 700 (million) be too much in 3 years? Under our current PWA a 1% pay raise equals about 20 million/yr.
Tough numbers, but to think we will have a landfall contract on 2014 after mediation (and stickers and slogans) is tough to get my hands around.
RA coughed up 750m to make things work in this merger, UA/CO is gonna fight to even get to this number. I hate it for them but smizek is playing the lorenzo card. Odds are the CO scope will be sold for pay rates in the tune of 300-500 mil which is the number that will be DL +1
06-04-2012, 12:05 PM
#135
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Just happy to be here Boss!
Posts: 200
Originally Posted by fartboxflyer
I am a 50% voter waiting for a bit more info to sway me. It is easy to get on either bandwagon and hoist the flag. Many arguments on both sides are valid.
The real problem here is the 800 lb gorilla in the room that is the Railway labor act. I honestly believe there is no president that will allow self help, based upon many factors economic and political. That is the fly in the ointment. Management put up a number that hopefully will pass by 51 % by their standards. That is their responsibility and it looks like it was close to target.
Did the MEC get every drop? Not sure.
Will the company sail right into a long sec 6 and dance for 2 years? I wouldn't blame them, that is their job.... and free money.
Will the NMB release us from mediation after 2+ years with a bigger number? Do they care about all the stickers and slogans during this time? not one bit.
I believe AMR/APA proposal with douggie parker says a lot, those boys are screwed and looking for any port in the storm. Seen their scope proposal? scary at best. I don't blame them cause the alternative is much worse.
This goes back to where we may be in 2015 under a traditional sec. 6 dance for 2+ years. The NMB doesnt give a crap what a 767 FO made in 2003.
DPA or ALPA cannot change the fact that the RLA controls our ability to walk away from any deal, pattern bargaining is really tough with most of the industry is in quicksand. Those folks on the NMB look at numbers on a napkin. Is 425 too little, will 700 (million) be too much in 3 years? Under our current PWA a 1% pay raise equals about 20 million/yr.
Tough numbers, but to think we will have a landfall contract on 2014 after mediation (and stickers and slogans) is tough to get my hands around.
RA coughed up 750m to make things work in this merger, UA/CO is gonna fight to even get to this number. I hate it for them but smizek is playing the lorenzo card. Odds are the CO scope will be sold for pay rates in the tune of 300-500 mil which is the number that will be DL +1
The real problem here is the 800 lb gorilla in the room that is the Railway labor act. I honestly believe there is no president that will allow self help, based upon many factors economic and political. That is the fly in the ointment. Management put up a number that hopefully will pass by 51 % by their standards. That is their responsibility and it looks like it was close to target.
Did the MEC get every drop? Not sure.
Will the company sail right into a long sec 6 and dance for 2 years? I wouldn't blame them, that is their job.... and free money.
Will the NMB release us from mediation after 2+ years with a bigger number? Do they care about all the stickers and slogans during this time? not one bit.
I believe AMR/APA proposal with douggie parker says a lot, those boys are screwed and looking for any port in the storm. Seen their scope proposal? scary at best. I don't blame them cause the alternative is much worse.
This goes back to where we may be in 2015 under a traditional sec. 6 dance for 2+ years. The NMB doesnt give a crap what a 767 FO made in 2003.
DPA or ALPA cannot change the fact that the RLA controls our ability to walk away from any deal, pattern bargaining is really tough with most of the industry is in quicksand. Those folks on the NMB look at numbers on a napkin. Is 425 too little, will 700 (million) be too much in 3 years? Under our current PWA a 1% pay raise equals about 20 million/yr.
Tough numbers, but to think we will have a landfall contract on 2014 after mediation (and stickers and slogans) is tough to get my hands around.
RA coughed up 750m to make things work in this merger, UA/CO is gonna fight to even get to this number. I hate it for them but smizek is playing the lorenzo card. Odds are the CO scope will be sold for pay rates in the tune of 300-500 mil which is the number that will be DL +1
06-04-2012, 02:05 PM
#136
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: 737n/FO
Posts: 667
Originally Posted by fartboxflyer
I am a 50% voter waiting for a bit more info to sway me. It is easy to get on either bandwagon and hoist the flag. Many arguments on both sides are valid.
The real problem here is the 800 lb gorilla in the room that is the Railway labor act. I honestly believe there is no president that will allow self help, based upon many factors economic and political. That is the fly in the ointment. Management put up a number that hopefully will pass by 51 % by their standards. That is their responsibility and it looks like it was close to target.
Did the MEC get every drop? Not sure.
Will the company sail right into a long sec 6 and dance for 2 years? I wouldn't blame them, that is their job.... and free money.
Will the NMB release us from mediation after 2+ years with a bigger number? Do they care about all the stickers and slogans during this time? not one bit.
I believe AMR/APA proposal with douggie parker says a lot, those boys are screwed and looking for any port in the storm. Seen their scope proposal? scary at best. I don't blame them cause the alternative is much worse.
This goes back to where we may be in 2015 under a traditional sec. 6 dance for 2+ years. The NMB doesnt give a crap what a 767 FO made in 2003.
DPA or ALPA cannot change the fact that the RLA controls our ability to walk away from any deal, pattern bargaining is really tough with most of the industry is in quicksand. Those folks on the NMB look at numbers on a napkin. Is 425 too little, will 700 (million) be too much in 3 years? Under our current PWA a 1% pay raise equals about 20 million/yr.
Tough numbers, but to think we will have a landfall contract on 2014 after mediation (and stickers and slogans) is tough to get my hands around.
RA coughed up 750m to make things work in this merger, UA/CO is gonna fight to even get to this number. I hate it for them but smizek is playing the lorenzo card. Odds are the CO scope will be sold for pay rates in the tune of 300-500 mil which is the number that will be DL +1
The real problem here is the 800 lb gorilla in the room that is the Railway labor act. I honestly believe there is no president that will allow self help, based upon many factors economic and political. That is the fly in the ointment. Management put up a number that hopefully will pass by 51 % by their standards. That is their responsibility and it looks like it was close to target.
Did the MEC get every drop? Not sure.
Will the company sail right into a long sec 6 and dance for 2 years? I wouldn't blame them, that is their job.... and free money.
Will the NMB release us from mediation after 2+ years with a bigger number? Do they care about all the stickers and slogans during this time? not one bit.
I believe AMR/APA proposal with douggie parker says a lot, those boys are screwed and looking for any port in the storm. Seen their scope proposal? scary at best. I don't blame them cause the alternative is much worse.
This goes back to where we may be in 2015 under a traditional sec. 6 dance for 2+ years. The NMB doesnt give a crap what a 767 FO made in 2003.
DPA or ALPA cannot change the fact that the RLA controls our ability to walk away from any deal, pattern bargaining is really tough with most of the industry is in quicksand. Those folks on the NMB look at numbers on a napkin. Is 425 too little, will 700 (million) be too much in 3 years? Under our current PWA a 1% pay raise equals about 20 million/yr.
Tough numbers, but to think we will have a landfall contract on 2014 after mediation (and stickers and slogans) is tough to get my hands around.
RA coughed up 750m to make things work in this merger, UA/CO is gonna fight to even get to this number. I hate it for them but smizek is playing the lorenzo card. Odds are the CO scope will be sold for pay rates in the tune of 300-500 mil which is the number that will be DL +1
