Dal came to us!!!
06-05-2012 | 01:49 PM
#11
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From: Light Chop
Question, what was the fleeting opportunity that made Delta come to the table?
I mean what was so significant to cause Delta to give up it's greatest leverage per the RLA?
Best guess is fine.
I mean what was so significant to cause Delta to give up it's greatest leverage per the RLA?
Best guess is fine.
06-05-2012 | 01:54 PM
#12
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Joined: Feb 2008
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From: 777 Sim Instructor
They had a major decision to make on DCI and they were/are on a timeline. They have a preferred plan A (TA with 717's) and an alternate plan B. Both are economically sound. Only one of the plans includes us.
06-05-2012 | 02:28 PM
#13
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I repeat!
DAL CAME TO US!!!This is THE most important thing to note!
Not once ion history has an airline approached a pilot union before a contract date.
What DAL needs is not on the table.
We are in a position to bargain. This is a contract opening negotiation. Our NC evidently doesn't know how to negotiate. It is up to us to say NO and start the negotiating.
Someone asked on another thread why we don't have professional negotiators??Someone answered that pilots can read.
Well start reading!!!! WE CAN NEVER RECOVER ANY SCOPE WE GIVE UP!
We should have professional negotiators. I know you can read but unless you have been trained in the intricacies of this legal slay of hand game you are out of your league.The professional negotiator is a certain set of skills that we as pilots do not get. They are risk takers. We by the nature of our jobs are not. This contract appears to have been presented to the NC and accepted. The MEC is selling this for management.Their job is to look at it objectively not sell it to us. They see NOTHING wrong with it! Wow!!
Please quit being lambs to the slaughter! We are in a position to ask for more money,better work rules and not give up scope.We voted ourselves some pay CUTS. Times are good at DAL. USE IT! See this for what it is..A CONTRACT EXTENSION.
VOTE NO!
PS If you were not a DAL or former NW pilot when we took those pay cuts please talk to folks who were. We gave up 40 to 50% on average along with a pension. Both pilot groups took one of those pay cuts (There were 3 or 4 all together) to help the company avoid bankruptcy. This was sold to the pilot groups by their respective union leaders at the time. We see how well that worked.The pension like SCOPE will never come back once given BUT pay and Work Rules can. This contract isn't even a COLA! Play with the duty rig and % all you want. RA is not giving you anything.If they don't hire you stay in the left seat of the MadDog(or very junior ER/ FO in NYC) for a very, very, very long time.
DAL CAME TO US!!!This is THE most important thing to note!
Not once ion history has an airline approached a pilot union before a contract date.
What DAL needs is not on the table.
We are in a position to bargain. This is a contract opening negotiation. Our NC evidently doesn't know how to negotiate. It is up to us to say NO and start the negotiating.
Someone asked on another thread why we don't have professional negotiators??Someone answered that pilots can read.
Well start reading!!!! WE CAN NEVER RECOVER ANY SCOPE WE GIVE UP!
We should have professional negotiators. I know you can read but unless you have been trained in the intricacies of this legal slay of hand game you are out of your league.The professional negotiator is a certain set of skills that we as pilots do not get. They are risk takers. We by the nature of our jobs are not. This contract appears to have been presented to the NC and accepted. The MEC is selling this for management.Their job is to look at it objectively not sell it to us. They see NOTHING wrong with it! Wow!!
Please quit being lambs to the slaughter! We are in a position to ask for more money,better work rules and not give up scope.We voted ourselves some pay CUTS. Times are good at DAL. USE IT! See this for what it is..A CONTRACT EXTENSION.
VOTE NO!
PS If you were not a DAL or former NW pilot when we took those pay cuts please talk to folks who were. We gave up 40 to 50% on average along with a pension. Both pilot groups took one of those pay cuts (There were 3 or 4 all together) to help the company avoid bankruptcy. This was sold to the pilot groups by their respective union leaders at the time. We see how well that worked.The pension like SCOPE will never come back once given BUT pay and Work Rules can. This contract isn't even a COLA! Play with the duty rig and % all you want. RA is not giving you anything.If they don't hire you stay in the left seat of the MadDog(or very junior ER/ FO in NYC) for a very, very, very long time.
06-05-2012 | 02:41 PM
#14
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Another person with reading comprehension problems. This TA will result in more Delta pilots and less RJ pilots. By the way the NMB could care less what we made in 2000, they will look at the landscape today and see that without this TA we are #2 behind SW(they don't consider FE or UPS in our industry). They are under no obligation to make us #1. The younger pilots at DL will make out real well with the 15% put into retirement accounts, over 25 to 30 years that is going to make a lot of millionaires. But go ahead and rant, use large font, and disregard that we did have professional negotiators involved, you're on a roll !
We had the usual ALPA professional Negotiators" advice"...all 3 of them.
They did not do the negotiating. Their stellar advice has us still working at bankruptcy pay rates.
They are also the negotiators for all of the DCI flying ALPA now represents. Can you say conflict of interest?
We need our own DALPA negotiators AT THE TABLE.
Under this TA we add 70 new 76 seat AC . These are 2 class planes with 4 hour legs.Think they won't be doing mainline flying?
With the increase in the ALV/TLV a lot if not all of the promised717 flying could be absorbed by the existing pilot group.
Reduction of profit sharing to get part of this insufficient pay raise. As this industry is poised to make a lot of money is just beyond unacceptable.
We are setting a precedent of compensation packages based on bankruptcy pay rates. This effects all of the major airlines not just us.
To quote Maichael Campbell Delta EXEC VP
"The fleet changes provided by this agreement, coupled with the productivity and profit sharing changes,cover the investments in our employees."
Translation ..they gave us everything we wanted! oh and they took what we offered.
Even though we never saw the Survey results it is easy to gather from reading the explanations of yes and no votes from the individuals LECs the the number one request was increase in compensation.
Their job is to get what the majority wants... they failed.
For the sake of everyone I hope their will be a place to invest that 15% that the "younger" pilots get and I hope they have 25 or 30 years to do it.
I have read the Reason for yes AND no votes by all members who wrote them. I found reasons for voting no even in the summary of those who voted yes.
You have to run the numbers. Many did. Some filled it with scare tactics.
The company needs this and THEY are under a time constraint. The pilot group is not. This TA was set up so that if you scan it it might look good. You really have to read it..line by boring line.
I don't care how many RJ pilots there are. We cannot give 70 more planes capable of mainline flying.That is our flying. No sale!
Vote NO!
I like to use large font when making a point
06-05-2012 | 02:46 PM
#15
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Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Light Chop
Given the union is indicating they tried to front load the pay as much as possible, as in don't worry about the 3%/3% we'll never get there. Hint, merger 2013.
The company imho has come to the table for scope concessions as was always rumored.
They agreed to the 12% front loaded pay to help get the concessions passed. To further aid that cause they will leverage the fear of extended section 6 and no 717s. To me that sounds like whatever merger is coming it won't give them the leverage to get scope concessions.
So my bet fins, if we say no to this TA I bet they come back with a slight pay raise but future 82 seat scope is not improved. More people vote yes, may then be enough to pass.
If that is the case, the airline is just telling us they really really really want more jumbo RJs. That should say something.
06-05-2012 | 02:49 PM
#16
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Plan A we have .
So what is this mysterious Plan B that does not include us?
They will retire those 50 seaters with no Scope concessions from us. The are a money pit!
Sounds like an ALPA or DAL management scare tactic..
06-05-2012 | 02:51 PM
#17
Sho me da money!
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 947
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From: B25, Left
******************
Last edited by FIIGMO; 06-05-2012 at 02:54 PM. Reason: It would have ****ed off people that started this thread
06-05-2012 | 03:23 PM
#18
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,088
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From: B757/767
We had the usual ALPA professional Negotiators" advice"...all 3 of them.
They did not do the negotiating. Their stellar advice has us still working at bankruptcy pay rates.
They are also the negotiators for all of the DCI flying ALPA now represents. Can you say conflict of interest?
We need our own DALPA negotiators AT THE TABLE.
Under this TA we add 70 new 76 seat AC . These are 2 class planes with 4 hour legs.Think they won't be doing mainline flying?
With the increase in the ALV/TLV a lot if not all of the promised717 flying could be absorbed by the existing pilot group.
Reduction of profit sharing to get part of this insufficient pay raise. As this industry is poised to make a lot of money is just beyond unacceptable.
We are setting a precedent of compensation packages based on bankruptcy pay rates. This effects all of the major airlines not just us.
To quote Maichael Campbell Delta EXEC VP
"The fleet changes provided by this agreement, coupled with the productivity and profit sharing changes,cover the investments in our employees."
Translation ..they gave us everything we wanted! oh and they took what we offered.
Even though we never saw the Survey results it is easy to gather from reading the explanations of yes and no votes from the individuals LECs the the number one request was increase in compensation.
Their job is to get what the majority wants... they failed.
For the sake of everyone I hope their will be a place to invest that 15% that the "younger" pilots get and I hope they have 25 or 30 years to do it.
I have read the Reason for yes AND no votes by all members who wrote them. I found reasons for voting no even in the summary of those who voted yes.
You have to run the numbers. Many did. Some filled it with scare tactics.
The company needs this and THEY are under a time constraint. The pilot group is not. This TA was set up so that if you scan it it might look good. You really have to read it..line by boring line.
I don't care how many RJ pilots there are. We cannot give 70 more planes capable of mainline flying.That is our flying. No sale!
Vote NO!
I like to use large font when making a point
They did not do the negotiating. Their stellar advice has us still working at bankruptcy pay rates.
They are also the negotiators for all of the DCI flying ALPA now represents. Can you say conflict of interest?
We need our own DALPA negotiators AT THE TABLE.
Under this TA we add 70 new 76 seat AC . These are 2 class planes with 4 hour legs.Think they won't be doing mainline flying?
With the increase in the ALV/TLV a lot if not all of the promised717 flying could be absorbed by the existing pilot group.
Reduction of profit sharing to get part of this insufficient pay raise. As this industry is poised to make a lot of money is just beyond unacceptable.
We are setting a precedent of compensation packages based on bankruptcy pay rates. This effects all of the major airlines not just us.
To quote Maichael Campbell Delta EXEC VP
"The fleet changes provided by this agreement, coupled with the productivity and profit sharing changes,cover the investments in our employees."
Translation ..they gave us everything we wanted! oh and they took what we offered.
Even though we never saw the Survey results it is easy to gather from reading the explanations of yes and no votes from the individuals LECs the the number one request was increase in compensation.
Their job is to get what the majority wants... they failed.
For the sake of everyone I hope their will be a place to invest that 15% that the "younger" pilots get and I hope they have 25 or 30 years to do it.
I have read the Reason for yes AND no votes by all members who wrote them. I found reasons for voting no even in the summary of those who voted yes.
You have to run the numbers. Many did. Some filled it with scare tactics.
The company needs this and THEY are under a time constraint. The pilot group is not. This TA was set up so that if you scan it it might look good. You really have to read it..line by boring line.
I don't care how many RJ pilots there are. We cannot give 70 more planes capable of mainline flying.That is our flying. No sale!
Vote NO!
I like to use large font when making a point
Our NC has 4 members, not 3.
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