It's so simple
06-17-2012 | 07:55 PM
#111
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From: Light Chop
BTW, "what are you willing to give up to get that?" is cost neutral.
06-17-2012 | 08:16 PM
#112
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From: Light Chop
Carl wanted to see Bush's quote, and I gave it to him. You need to re-read it too. Bush wasn't going to allow it. Your quote above applies, but it could have been delayed for a long long time, essentially not allowing it. Same could happen today, especially if it would hurt the economy here. Then the head of the NMB says it could take 29 months to complete mediation, with a question mark after that. Can you see the point here? Help Carl out if you can.
Remember it's Direct Negotiations > NMB Mediation > Impasse > 30 Day Cooling Off > PEB created > PEB 30 day examination > if PEB rejected then 30 day cooling off period > Strike/Lockout.
You head that off via an agreement or agreeing to binding arbitration, but if that all fails and you get to the point a PEB can be created:
Presidential Emergency Board – Upon receiving notification from the NMB that a labor
dispute ―threaten(s) substantially to interrupt interstate commerce to a degree such as to
deprive any section of the country of essential transportation service,‖ the President of the
United States may appoint a Presidential Emergency Board (PEB). This Board, typically
made up of labor arbitrators, will hold hearings and make a recommendation on open issues.
The PEB has 30 days to investigate and render its report to the President.
Neither party is required to accept the recommendations of the PEB. In the absence of
intervention by the United States Congress (which has not occurred in the airline industry in
over 40 years), both parties may engage in self-help 30 days after the PEB issues its report to
the President.
Self Help – Self-help involves either or both sides engaging in some or all of a wide range of
permitted activities that are intended to bring economic pressure on the other party. While
the RLA does not specify allowable actions under self-help, court decisions over the years
have defined a number of parameters. The basics of union self-help involve strikes and
picketing, while the carrier’s basics involve implementing its proposed contract changes or
locking out and/or attempting to replace the striking workers.
dispute ―threaten(s) substantially to interrupt interstate commerce to a degree such as to
deprive any section of the country of essential transportation service,‖ the President of the
United States may appoint a Presidential Emergency Board (PEB). This Board, typically
made up of labor arbitrators, will hold hearings and make a recommendation on open issues.
The PEB has 30 days to investigate and render its report to the President.
Neither party is required to accept the recommendations of the PEB. In the absence of
intervention by the United States Congress (which has not occurred in the airline industry in
over 40 years), both parties may engage in self-help 30 days after the PEB issues its report to
the President.
Self Help – Self-help involves either or both sides engaging in some or all of a wide range of
permitted activities that are intended to bring economic pressure on the other party. While
the RLA does not specify allowable actions under self-help, court decisions over the years
have defined a number of parameters. The basics of union self-help involve strikes and
picketing, while the carrier’s basics involve implementing its proposed contract changes or
locking out and/or attempting to replace the striking workers.
06-17-2012 | 08:45 PM
#113
Banned
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From: Space Shuttle PIC
Bill, the President cannot stop you from striking. Congress can.
Remember it's Direct Negotiations > NMB Mediation > Impasse > 30 Day Cooling Off > PEB created > PEB 30 day examination > if PEB rejected then 30 day cooling off period > Strike/Lockout.
You head that off via an agreement or agreeing to binding arbitration, but if that all fails and you get to the point a PEB can be created:
Remember it's Direct Negotiations > NMB Mediation > Impasse > 30 Day Cooling Off > PEB created > PEB 30 day examination > if PEB rejected then 30 day cooling off period > Strike/Lockout.
You head that off via an agreement or agreeing to binding arbitration, but if that all fails and you get to the point a PEB can be created:
Bush said he wasn't going to allow any major airline union strikes that year. He made it personal. Obama may not do that exactly, but if they want to delay a strike, they can do it. If it could hurt the economy, they will stop it. I don't particularly like that at all, but the larger an airline becomes, the less likely they will be allowed to strike. Delay, delay. That's why I favor shorter duration contracts that still bring in 19.7% in 3 years, with improvements in other areas too.
06-17-2012 | 10:48 PM
#114
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From: Light Chop
FTB,
Bush said he wasn't going to allow any major airline union strikes that year. He made it personal. Obama may not do that exactly, but if they want to delay a strike, they can do it. If it could hurt the economy, they will stop it. I don't particularly like that at all, but the larger an airline becomes, the less likely they will be allowed to strike. Delay, delay. That's why I favor shorter duration contracts that still bring in 19.7% in 3 years, with improvements in other areas too.
Bush said he wasn't going to allow any major airline union strikes that year. He made it personal. Obama may not do that exactly, but if they want to delay a strike, they can do it. If it could hurt the economy, they will stop it. I don't particularly like that at all, but the larger an airline becomes, the less likely they will be allowed to strike. Delay, delay. That's why I favor shorter duration contracts that still bring in 19.7% in 3 years, with improvements in other areas too.
06-18-2012 | 04:04 AM
#115
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2009
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From: right for a long, long time
06-18-2012 | 04:27 AM
#116
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FtB's postings have really gone down hill, from made up fleet plans to partial stories on pay and costs, to rebroadcasting DPA stuff that is clearly inaccurate.
FtB, if you'd just say "I don't like the TA because of more large RJ's" and stop, you'd be fine. Everybody can look at a set of facts and come to different conclusions. That's the process and that's why we vote, then move forward together as a group. But you've entered the full spin zone and have lost credibility with charts like the one above.
06-18-2012 | 04:42 AM
#117
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Where are you getting 175 to 200? I am looking at the slide presentation. The only number presented is 72 coming from the staffing formula changes.
06-18-2012 | 04:48 AM
#118
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Disclaimer: this message is not Georgetg approved, vetted or similar quality.
Okay, so is it cost neutral? Yes. For the company it is. For us... it isn't, but imho it's a loss.
Using the numbers airlinefinancials digs out of the BTS and SEC data you can estimate what our total pilot costs are to the company. If we continued on our path of approximately 4% raises per year under the PWA and compared it to the TA, the TA is going to cost the company $90M more than the PWA would have for the 2012-2015 period. That $90M goes to us. Sounds like a win, but two things:
First, it's 1% over what our trajectory had us going at, or 6% YOY raises vs 4% before you remove 300 pilots across every category. So you can kind of claim 1% is neutral, but that's not the point. So throw this out.
Second, and follow me on this, by the end of 2015 with the TA we go from DCI 598/255 to 507/305. That is a drop of 91 aircraft. $90M TA pilot cost increase / 91 airplanes = $994K/yr lease / 12 months / .01% lease rate = $8.3M airplanes.
If those CRJ-200s being parked cost around $8.3M each, we're indeed transferring the cost savings from parking those CRJ-200s to us over the 2012-2015 time period. A Lumberg style win, we're getting compensated. A wealth transfer if you will.
So that would be cost neutral to the company and a gain for us. But that's the ruse.
From our point of view we get raises, 717s and 450 cap on RJs. For the company, they get
- A quick contract allowing merger mania to continue unimpeded,
- Rid of CRJ-200s they wanted to get rid of without paying extra for it,
- To reduce DCI down to a number they probably prefer,
- To get us to sign off on more 76 seaters that they wanted without having to give up 70 seaters which under the old PWA would've cost money,
- To give us raises without it costing anything to them,
- To use the TA as a leverage with Bombardier to do a swap and the DCI carriers to allow the changes to happen, and
- To leverage the 717s they were going to get anyways to get the pilots to sign off on a 27% jumbo RJ scope concession.
So they just hit a grand slam. They may have even made a profit on this whole thing.
Because without having to spend anything or do anything more than they would've done in the first place, they just got us to concede critical scope. So that's why imho it's a loss, because if we reduce our ranks due to the unnecessary jumbo RJ scope concession then that cost us all jobs.
This thread has gone from silly to ridiculous. Some fool tries to compare a strike at Comair in 2001 to a strike by Delta today. How much of the aviation market did Comair cover in 2001? How much does Delta cover today? What was the average system load factor then and what is it today? Is there any possibility that the rest of the nation's carriers could carry the passengers left by a Delta strike?
Here is the most frustrating part of this process. The union tries to relate to you data that was the given to the MEC by the Chairman of the NMB. She was not wishy washy or dissembling. She was blunt and direct. She laid out a road map for success and showed how everyone else was disregarding that road map and the penalties they faced from that recklessness. And we are spreading FUD.
FTB just makes things up, pretties them up so they appear authoritative, and he gets a free pass. Sure, make up a fleet that you admit makes no sense, but publish it anyway and scare people. Sure, come up with some bogus costing summary that is completely made up and try to deceive people.
In the end, most people see who is working on their behalf and telling the truth and who is telling lies. FTB, that is an embarrassing lie you posted and if you have a shred of integrity you will renounce it. I doubt it.
06-18-2012 | 06:44 AM
#119
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From: Light Chop
I have no idea what alfa said after this first line and will not bother reading it. If an adult who is in better control of their emotions wants to discuss I'll be more than happy to do so.
FTB
06-18-2012 | 07:04 AM
#120
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Ladies and gentleman, this ^^^ is what you pay for from a committee person on FPL.
I have no idea what alfa said after this first line and will not bother reading it. If an adult who is in better control of their emotions wants to discuss I'll be more than happy to do so.
FTB
I have no idea what alfa said after this first line and will not bother reading it. If an adult who is in better control of their emotions wants to discuss I'll be more than happy to do so.
FTB
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