More planes added....
06-23-2012 | 09:53 PM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,642
Likes: 0
From: right for a long, long time
Bill, future 717A avatar guy 
, would you sign off on this in 2015?
The total DCI fleet would be 389 jets, all 51+ seats, but down from DCI 450.
Sound good?
, would you sign off on this in 2015? 1.B.43.b. “New large widebody aircraft” means a B-777-300 or an A350 added to the Company’s fleet as of [DOS].
1.B.46. “Permitted aircraft type” means:
1.B.46.e. one of up to 102 aircraft configured with 51-70 passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“70-seat aircraft”), and
1.B.46.f. one of up to 223 aircraft configured with 71-76 passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“76-seat jets”).
Exception one: If the Company establishes a fleet of new large widebody aircraft, the number of permitted 76-seat aircraft may increase four 76-seat aircraft for each one new large widebody aircraft (4:1.0) ratio (rounded to the next highest integer) up to a total of 287 76-seat aircraft. In the event more than 223 76-seat aircraft are in category A or C operations, then on January 1, 2016, and each succeeding January 1 thereafter, the Company will implement its plan to reduce the number of 50-seat aircraft in category A or C operations below Y (the number of 50-seat aircraft in category A or C operations as of [DOS]) rounded to the closest integer, as follows:
1) 0.9 50-seat aircraft for each of the first additional ten 76-seat aircraft (above 223),
2) 0.9 50-seat aircraft for each of the first additional ten 76-seat aircraft (above 233),
3) 1.0 50-seat aircraft for each of the first additional ten 76-seat aircraft (above 243),
4) 1.1 50-seat aircraft for each of the first additional ten 76-seat aircraft (above 253),
5) 1.1 50-seat aircraft for each of the first additional ten 76-seat aircraft (above 263).
6) 2.4 50-seat aircraft for each of the first additional ten 76-seat aircraft (above 273), and
7) 5.3 50-seat aircraft for each of the next additional ten 76-seat aircraft (above 283).
Note one: Upon the delivery of a 284th76-seat aircraft, the number of permitted 50-seat aircraft will be 0 regardless of the number otherwise provided in Exception one.
Note two: If on January 1, 2017, or any succeeding January 1 thereafter, the number of 50-seat aircraft in category A or C operations exceeds the maximum permitted number, the Company will require carriers that engage in category A or C operations to suspend or cease operations on a sufficient number of 50-seat aircraft or 76-seat aircraft to comply with these requirements within 60 days and to remain in compliance thereafter. The Company will be excused from compliance with the provisions of this Note in the event a circumstance over which the Company does not have control is the cause of such non-compliance.
So there you get 16 new B773s and we reduce 50 seaters down to 0 but we raise 76 seaters by 64 aircraft which is less than the increase in TA 2012. 1.B.46. “Permitted aircraft type” means:
1.B.46.e. one of up to 102 aircraft configured with 51-70 passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“70-seat aircraft”), and
1.B.46.f. one of up to 223 aircraft configured with 71-76 passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“76-seat jets”).
Exception one: If the Company establishes a fleet of new large widebody aircraft, the number of permitted 76-seat aircraft may increase four 76-seat aircraft for each one new large widebody aircraft (4:1.0) ratio (rounded to the next highest integer) up to a total of 287 76-seat aircraft. In the event more than 223 76-seat aircraft are in category A or C operations, then on January 1, 2016, and each succeeding January 1 thereafter, the Company will implement its plan to reduce the number of 50-seat aircraft in category A or C operations below Y (the number of 50-seat aircraft in category A or C operations as of [DOS]) rounded to the closest integer, as follows:
1) 0.9 50-seat aircraft for each of the first additional ten 76-seat aircraft (above 223),
2) 0.9 50-seat aircraft for each of the first additional ten 76-seat aircraft (above 233),
3) 1.0 50-seat aircraft for each of the first additional ten 76-seat aircraft (above 243),
4) 1.1 50-seat aircraft for each of the first additional ten 76-seat aircraft (above 253),
5) 1.1 50-seat aircraft for each of the first additional ten 76-seat aircraft (above 263).
6) 2.4 50-seat aircraft for each of the first additional ten 76-seat aircraft (above 273), and
7) 5.3 50-seat aircraft for each of the next additional ten 76-seat aircraft (above 283).
Note one: Upon the delivery of a 284th76-seat aircraft, the number of permitted 50-seat aircraft will be 0 regardless of the number otherwise provided in Exception one.
Note two: If on January 1, 2017, or any succeeding January 1 thereafter, the number of 50-seat aircraft in category A or C operations exceeds the maximum permitted number, the Company will require carriers that engage in category A or C operations to suspend or cease operations on a sufficient number of 50-seat aircraft or 76-seat aircraft to comply with these requirements within 60 days and to remain in compliance thereafter. The Company will be excused from compliance with the provisions of this Note in the event a circumstance over which the Company does not have control is the cause of such non-compliance.
The total DCI fleet would be 389 jets, all 51+ seats, but down from DCI 450.
Sound good?
ULH aircraft are not the mainline replacement for DCI flying.
06-24-2012 | 02:25 AM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Bill,
I think the logical way to look at this TA is we’re providing relief for the company that the PWA would not have allowed.
Per the PWA, no more than 153 76-seaters until the mainline fleet grows from today's 715 airframes to the mergers 767 airframes and then continue to grow to trigger the 3:1 ratio that required 70 seaters to be removed.
Per the TA, we allow more 76-seaters without requiring mainline to grow and we do not require the 70 seaters to be parked at any point. In exchange for doing that DCI in the year following the TA’s amendable date shrinks from around 500 airplanes to a cap of 450 airplanes. All of that is contingent on acquiring more 717s, which the company evidently has wanted to do anyways.
So if the company’s plan is not to grow mainline, to get rid of unwanted 50 seaters ahead of schedule, to acquire more 76 seaters and to acquire 717s as replacement aircraft, then, the TA allows them to do all of the above whereas the PWA had more restrictive limits.
I think the logical way to look at this TA is we’re providing relief for the company that the PWA would not have allowed.
Per the PWA, no more than 153 76-seaters until the mainline fleet grows from today's 715 airframes to the mergers 767 airframes and then continue to grow to trigger the 3:1 ratio that required 70 seaters to be removed.
Per the TA, we allow more 76-seaters without requiring mainline to grow and we do not require the 70 seaters to be parked at any point. In exchange for doing that DCI in the year following the TA’s amendable date shrinks from around 500 airplanes to a cap of 450 airplanes. All of that is contingent on acquiring more 717s, which the company evidently has wanted to do anyways.
So if the company’s plan is not to grow mainline, to get rid of unwanted 50 seaters ahead of schedule, to acquire more 76 seaters and to acquire 717s as replacement aircraft, then, the TA allows them to do all of the above whereas the PWA had more restrictive limits.
Delta currently contracts for operation of 343 50-seat aircraft and is contractually obligated to its DCI partners to operate 311 50-seat aircraft through the end of 2015.* Importantly, Delta has obligations for many of these 50-seat aircraft until 2024.* But as a result of looming maintenance costs, high fuel prices and customer preferences, the Company is seeking to substantially reduce the number of 50-seat aircraft operated by its DCI carriers, as quickly as possible.* The rumor that, absent this deal, Delta will simply send the 50-seaters to the desert on their own is at best partially true; over time, it will probably happen, but not for well over a decade.*
The tentative agreement allows Delta earlier access to an additional 70 76-seat aircraft, but only if they first add to the mainline fleet 88 SNB aircraft (recently identified by the Company as B-717s).* The TA requires that the addition of these 76-seat aircraft will, in turn, trigger a further reduction in the number of 50-seat aircraft that DCI may operate.* The Company plans to accomplish this reduction by exchanging with the DCI carriers 76-seat aircraft for 50-seat aircraft on approximately a 2 for 1 basis (i.e. two 50-seat RJs removed from operation for each 76-seat RJ placed into operation).* At the end state, the number of 50-seat aircraft must be reduced to 125 from the 311 (almost a 60 percent reduction) that the Company would otherwise be contractually obligated to without this agreement.
Current PWA Limits
No limit on propeller-driven aircraft up to 70 seats and 70,000 lbs.
No limit on jet aircraft up to 50-seats and 65,000 lbs.
Currently at 343 50-seat jet aircraft
No more than 255 70 and 76-seat jet aircraft that may weigh up to 86,000 lbs.
Currently at 102 70-seat jet aircraft and 153 76-seat jet aircraft (total of 255)
Weight exception for 36 Compass EMB-175 at 89,000 lbs.
Baseline of 153 76-seat jet aircraft that may weigh up to 86,000 lbs.
3 for 1 growth of 76 seat aircraft once there are more than 767 aircraft on the mainline.* Up to a maximum of 255 76-seat aircraft
TA Limits
End state cap of 450 DCI aircraft
Exception for propeller-driven or turboprop aircraft of up to 37 seats and/or 37,000 lbs.
Exception for Delta Private Jets of up to 19 seats and 65,000 lbs.
Five aircraft may weigh up to 99,900 lbs.
Exception for up to nine aircraft operated under a prorate agreement with Chautauqua Airlines or Shuttle America, seating capacity up to 44 seats and less than 65,000 lbs.
End state cap of 125 50-seat aircraft of up to 65,000 lbs. based on ratio reduction
Company plans to have 343 50-seat jet aircraft on July 1, 2012
Under TA, reduction of 50-seat aircraft based on deliveries of new 76-seat aircraft
Zero future growth allowed
Immediate hard cap of 102 70-seat aircraft of up to 86,000 lbs.
Zero future growth allowed
End state hard cap of 223 76-seat aircraft of up to 86,000 lbs.
Existing weight exception for 36 Compass EMB-175 at 89,000 lbs. remains
Requires 1.25 SNB in fleet for each 76-seat aircraft added above current 153 in fleet up to maximum of 223
This is a reduction of 32 76-seat aircraft from current PWA limit (based on the current 3:1 growth metric and up to 255 76-seat aircraft)
The combined cap on 70 and 76-seat aircraft increases to 325 (102 70-seat + 223 76-seat)
Eliminates 3:1 growth over 767 mainline aircraft up to 255
Zero future growth allowed
*
Delivery of additional 76-seat aircraft is prohibited until SNB aircraft are first added to the mainline fleet, and then, a simultaneous reduction of 50-seat aircraft is required.* This is an event-based process and not time or date-based.* As Delta implements their business plan and adds more SNBs, only then may they add more 76-seat aircraft, while also removing 50-seat aircraft.* Once a 50-seat aircraft is removed, the number of allowable 50-seat aircraft is capped at that level until the next removal and so on.* That cap can then never increase.
*
When the up-gauging is complete, the mainline share of domestic flying will have increased from the present 54% to 64% (based on Delta’s current business plan).* Put another way, this will result in a significant increase in mainline pilots’ share of Delta domestic flying.*
*
As SNBs are added to the fleet, allowing faster access to the first additional 76-seat aircraft, a required minimum ratio of domestic mainline block hours to DCI block hours will be established and must be maintained.* (For this purpose, domestic mainline block hours includes flying on all narrow body aircraft and all B-767-300 (non – ER) aircraft.)* Under the minimum block hour ratio in this TA, Delta pilots will fly no less than 61% of the total Delta domestic system block hours once the last group of 76-seat aircraft are added.* In other words, any reduction of domestic mainline block hours below a 1.56 ratio will trigger a mandatory reduction in DCI block hours in order to maintain the 1.56 ratio. *Any future growth of Delta aircraft, will, by definition, be mainline growth.* Even if Delta does not fully execute its business plan, we will have in place guarantees for our share of the domestic system flying, guarantees that do not exist under the current contract.* We will be the only legacy airline pilot group that has gained domestic flying without flying small aircraft and/or agree to substantially lower pay rates or different work rules.
Mainline has to grow in order for those 76s to show up. Furthermore, to think that the high operating costs of those 50s will not affect you and pawning it off as "it's not my problem" is just outright irresponsible. Either we allow the restructuring of those agreements or the money that has to be spent on operating those 50s will not go into our pockets but on them therefore perpetuating more money being put into DCI and not into DAL pilots. With the 717 purchase alone the company can increase the 76s up to 255. This TA allows only 223 76s (which is a reduction in the amount of 76s allowed on the property). The relief is on allowing 102 additional 70s (to offset the high cost of the 50s). It's an upgauge in equipment on most routes (with a first/business class) which makes our customers happy because the majority of them will no longer have to ride on those god forsaken 50s again.
How is it acceptable that another carrier performs more than half of DAL's domestic flying? This TA puts more of that flying back at mainline.
06-24-2012 | 05:56 AM
#53
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
Likes: 0
From: Light Chop
Bill,
I think the logical way to look at this TA is we’re providing relief for the company that the PWA would not have allowed.
Per the PWA, no more than 153 76-seaters until the mainline fleet grows from today's 715 airframes to the mergers 767 airframes and then continue to grow to trigger the 3:1 ratio that required 70 seaters to be removed.
Per the TA, we allow more 76-seaters without requiring mainline to grow and we do not require the 70 seaters to be parked at any point. In exchange for doing that DCI in the year following the TA’s amendable date shrinks from around 500 airplanes to a cap of 450 airplanes. All of that is contingent on acquiring more 717s, which the company evidently has wanted to do anyways.
So if the company’s plan is not to grow mainline, to get rid of unwanted 50 seaters ahead of schedule, to acquire more 76 seaters and to acquire 717s as replacement aircraft, then, the TA allows them to do all of the above whereas the PWA had more restrictive limits.
I think the logical way to look at this TA is we’re providing relief for the company that the PWA would not have allowed.
Per the PWA, no more than 153 76-seaters until the mainline fleet grows from today's 715 airframes to the mergers 767 airframes and then continue to grow to trigger the 3:1 ratio that required 70 seaters to be removed.
Per the TA, we allow more 76-seaters without requiring mainline to grow and we do not require the 70 seaters to be parked at any point. In exchange for doing that DCI in the year following the TA’s amendable date shrinks from around 500 airplanes to a cap of 450 airplanes. All of that is contingent on acquiring more 717s, which the company evidently has wanted to do anyways.
So if the company’s plan is not to grow mainline, to get rid of unwanted 50 seaters ahead of schedule, to acquire more 76 seaters and to acquire 717s as replacement aircraft, then, the TA allows them to do all of the above whereas the PWA had more restrictive limits.
That's just simply not true:
Delta currently contracts for operation of 343 50-seat aircraft and is contractually obligated to its DCI partners to operate 311 50-seat aircraft through the end of 2015.* Importantly, Delta has obligations for many of these 50-seat aircraft until 2024.* But as a result of looming maintenance costs, high fuel prices and customer preferences, the Company is seeking to substantially reduce the number of 50-seat aircraft operated by its DCI carriers, as quickly as possible.* The rumor that, absent this deal, Delta will simply send the 50-seaters to the desert on their own is at best partially true; over time, it will probably happen, but not for well over a decade.*
The tentative agreement allows Delta earlier access to an additional 70 76-seat aircraft, but only if they first add to the mainline fleet 88 SNB aircraft (recently identified by the Company as B-717s).* The TA requires that the addition of these 76-seat aircraft will, in turn, trigger a further reduction in the number of 50-seat aircraft that DCI may operate.* The Company plans to accomplish this reduction by exchanging with the DCI carriers 76-seat aircraft for 50-seat aircraft on approximately a 2 for 1 basis (i.e. two 50-seat RJs removed from operation for each 76-seat RJ placed into operation).* At the end state, the number of 50-seat aircraft must be reduced to 125 from the 311 (almost a 60 percent reduction) that the Company would otherwise be contractually obligated to without this agreement.
Current PWA Limits
No limit on propeller-driven aircraft up to 70 seats and 70,000 lbs.
No limit on jet aircraft up to 50-seats and 65,000 lbs.
Currently at 343 50-seat jet aircraft
No more than 255 70 and 76-seat jet aircraft that may weigh up to 86,000 lbs.
Currently at 102 70-seat jet aircraft and 153 76-seat jet aircraft (total of 255)
Weight exception for 36 Compass EMB-175 at 89,000 lbs.
Baseline of 153 76-seat jet aircraft that may weigh up to 86,000 lbs.
3 for 1 growth of 76 seat aircraft once there are more than 767 aircraft on the mainline.* Up to a maximum of 255 76-seat aircraft
TA Limits
End state cap of 450 DCI aircraft
Exception for propeller-driven or turboprop aircraft of up to 37 seats and/or 37,000 lbs.
Exception for Delta Private Jets of up to 19 seats and 65,000 lbs.
Five aircraft may weigh up to 99,900 lbs.
Exception for up to nine aircraft operated under a prorate agreement with Chautauqua Airlines or Shuttle America, seating capacity up to 44 seats and less than 65,000 lbs.
End state cap of 125 50-seat aircraft of up to 65,000 lbs. based on ratio reduction
Company plans to have 343 50-seat jet aircraft on July 1, 2012
Under TA, reduction of 50-seat aircraft based on deliveries of new 76-seat aircraft
Zero future growth allowed
Immediate hard cap of 102 70-seat aircraft of up to 86,000 lbs.
Zero future growth allowed
End state hard cap of 223 76-seat aircraft of up to 86,000 lbs.
Existing weight exception for 36 Compass EMB-175 at 89,000 lbs. remains
Requires 1.25 SNB in fleet for each 76-seat aircraft added above current 153 in fleet up to maximum of 223
This is a reduction of 32 76-seat aircraft from current PWA limit (based on the current 3:1 growth metric and up to 255 76-seat aircraft)
The combined cap on 70 and 76-seat aircraft increases to 325 (102 70-seat + 223 76-seat)
Eliminates 3:1 growth over 767 mainline aircraft up to 255
Zero future growth allowed
*
Delivery of additional 76-seat aircraft is prohibited until SNB aircraft are first added to the mainline fleet, and then, a simultaneous reduction of 50-seat aircraft is required.* This is an event-based process and not time or date-based.* As Delta implements their business plan and adds more SNBs, only then may they add more 76-seat aircraft, while also removing 50-seat aircraft.* Once a 50-seat aircraft is removed, the number of allowable 50-seat aircraft is capped at that level until the next removal and so on.* That cap can then never increase.
*
When the up-gauging is complete, the mainline share of domestic flying will have increased from the present 54% to 64% (based on Delta’s current business plan).* Put another way, this will result in a significant increase in mainline pilots’ share of Delta domestic flying.*
*
As SNBs are added to the fleet, allowing faster access to the first additional 76-seat aircraft, a required minimum ratio of domestic mainline block hours to DCI block hours will be established and must be maintained.* (For this purpose, domestic mainline block hours includes flying on all narrow body aircraft and all B-767-300 (non – ER) aircraft.)* Under the minimum block hour ratio in this TA, Delta pilots will fly no less than 61% of the total Delta domestic system block hours once the last group of 76-seat aircraft are added.* In other words, any reduction of domestic mainline block hours below a 1.56 ratio will trigger a mandatory reduction in DCI block hours in order to maintain the 1.56 ratio. *Any future growth of Delta aircraft, will, by definition, be mainline growth.* Even if Delta does not fully execute its business plan, we will have in place guarantees for our share of the domestic system flying, guarantees that do not exist under the current contract.* We will be the only legacy airline pilot group that has gained domestic flying without flying small aircraft and/or agree to substantially lower pay rates or different work rules.
Mainline has to grow in order for those 76s to show up. Furthermore, to think that the high operating costs of those 50s will not affect you and pawning it off as "it's not my problem" is just outright irresponsible. Either we allow the restructuring of those agreements or the money that has to be spent on operating those 50s will not go into our pockets but on them therefore perpetuating more money being put into DCI and not into DAL pilots. With the 717 purchase alone the company can increase the 76s up to 255. This TA allows only 223 76s (which is a reduction in the amount of 76s allowed on the property). The relief is on allowing 102 additional 70s (to offset the high cost of the 50s). It's an upgauge in equipment on most routes (with a first/business class) which makes our customers happy because the majority of them will no longer have to ride on those god forsaken 50s again.
How is it acceptable that another carrier performs more than half of DAL's domestic flying? This TA puts more of that flying back at mainline.
Delta currently contracts for operation of 343 50-seat aircraft and is contractually obligated to its DCI partners to operate 311 50-seat aircraft through the end of 2015.* Importantly, Delta has obligations for many of these 50-seat aircraft until 2024.* But as a result of looming maintenance costs, high fuel prices and customer preferences, the Company is seeking to substantially reduce the number of 50-seat aircraft operated by its DCI carriers, as quickly as possible.* The rumor that, absent this deal, Delta will simply send the 50-seaters to the desert on their own is at best partially true; over time, it will probably happen, but not for well over a decade.*
The tentative agreement allows Delta earlier access to an additional 70 76-seat aircraft, but only if they first add to the mainline fleet 88 SNB aircraft (recently identified by the Company as B-717s).* The TA requires that the addition of these 76-seat aircraft will, in turn, trigger a further reduction in the number of 50-seat aircraft that DCI may operate.* The Company plans to accomplish this reduction by exchanging with the DCI carriers 76-seat aircraft for 50-seat aircraft on approximately a 2 for 1 basis (i.e. two 50-seat RJs removed from operation for each 76-seat RJ placed into operation).* At the end state, the number of 50-seat aircraft must be reduced to 125 from the 311 (almost a 60 percent reduction) that the Company would otherwise be contractually obligated to without this agreement.
Current PWA Limits
No limit on propeller-driven aircraft up to 70 seats and 70,000 lbs.
No limit on jet aircraft up to 50-seats and 65,000 lbs.
Currently at 343 50-seat jet aircraft
No more than 255 70 and 76-seat jet aircraft that may weigh up to 86,000 lbs.
Currently at 102 70-seat jet aircraft and 153 76-seat jet aircraft (total of 255)
Weight exception for 36 Compass EMB-175 at 89,000 lbs.
Baseline of 153 76-seat jet aircraft that may weigh up to 86,000 lbs.
3 for 1 growth of 76 seat aircraft once there are more than 767 aircraft on the mainline.* Up to a maximum of 255 76-seat aircraft
TA Limits
End state cap of 450 DCI aircraft
Exception for propeller-driven or turboprop aircraft of up to 37 seats and/or 37,000 lbs.
Exception for Delta Private Jets of up to 19 seats and 65,000 lbs.
Five aircraft may weigh up to 99,900 lbs.
Exception for up to nine aircraft operated under a prorate agreement with Chautauqua Airlines or Shuttle America, seating capacity up to 44 seats and less than 65,000 lbs.
End state cap of 125 50-seat aircraft of up to 65,000 lbs. based on ratio reduction
Company plans to have 343 50-seat jet aircraft on July 1, 2012
Under TA, reduction of 50-seat aircraft based on deliveries of new 76-seat aircraft
Zero future growth allowed
Immediate hard cap of 102 70-seat aircraft of up to 86,000 lbs.
Zero future growth allowed
End state hard cap of 223 76-seat aircraft of up to 86,000 lbs.
Existing weight exception for 36 Compass EMB-175 at 89,000 lbs. remains
Requires 1.25 SNB in fleet for each 76-seat aircraft added above current 153 in fleet up to maximum of 223
This is a reduction of 32 76-seat aircraft from current PWA limit (based on the current 3:1 growth metric and up to 255 76-seat aircraft)
The combined cap on 70 and 76-seat aircraft increases to 325 (102 70-seat + 223 76-seat)
Eliminates 3:1 growth over 767 mainline aircraft up to 255
Zero future growth allowed
*
Delivery of additional 76-seat aircraft is prohibited until SNB aircraft are first added to the mainline fleet, and then, a simultaneous reduction of 50-seat aircraft is required.* This is an event-based process and not time or date-based.* As Delta implements their business plan and adds more SNBs, only then may they add more 76-seat aircraft, while also removing 50-seat aircraft.* Once a 50-seat aircraft is removed, the number of allowable 50-seat aircraft is capped at that level until the next removal and so on.* That cap can then never increase.
*
When the up-gauging is complete, the mainline share of domestic flying will have increased from the present 54% to 64% (based on Delta’s current business plan).* Put another way, this will result in a significant increase in mainline pilots’ share of Delta domestic flying.*
*
As SNBs are added to the fleet, allowing faster access to the first additional 76-seat aircraft, a required minimum ratio of domestic mainline block hours to DCI block hours will be established and must be maintained.* (For this purpose, domestic mainline block hours includes flying on all narrow body aircraft and all B-767-300 (non – ER) aircraft.)* Under the minimum block hour ratio in this TA, Delta pilots will fly no less than 61% of the total Delta domestic system block hours once the last group of 76-seat aircraft are added.* In other words, any reduction of domestic mainline block hours below a 1.56 ratio will trigger a mandatory reduction in DCI block hours in order to maintain the 1.56 ratio. *Any future growth of Delta aircraft, will, by definition, be mainline growth.* Even if Delta does not fully execute its business plan, we will have in place guarantees for our share of the domestic system flying, guarantees that do not exist under the current contract.* We will be the only legacy airline pilot group that has gained domestic flying without flying small aircraft and/or agree to substantially lower pay rates or different work rules.
Mainline has to grow in order for those 76s to show up. Furthermore, to think that the high operating costs of those 50s will not affect you and pawning it off as "it's not my problem" is just outright irresponsible. Either we allow the restructuring of those agreements or the money that has to be spent on operating those 50s will not go into our pockets but on them therefore perpetuating more money being put into DCI and not into DAL pilots. With the 717 purchase alone the company can increase the 76s up to 255. This TA allows only 223 76s (which is a reduction in the amount of 76s allowed on the property). The relief is on allowing 102 additional 70s (to offset the high cost of the 50s). It's an upgauge in equipment on most routes (with a first/business class) which makes our customers happy because the majority of them will no longer have to ride on those god forsaken 50s again.
How is it acceptable that another carrier performs more than half of DAL's domestic flying? This TA puts more of that flying back at mainline.
According to what you posted above:
Under the PWA, Mainline has to grow from 715 aircraft to 767 aircraft before the 3:1 language is triggered and then the 76 seat fleet can grow from 153 airframes to the max 51+ seat allowance of 255 airframes which means the 70 seaters are pushed out.
Under the TA, the hull count language requiring Mainline to grow above 767 aircraft before 76 seaters are added is stricken. Now we do block hours.
In a scenario where the 717s are added both under the TA and PWA, under the PWA you add 86 B717s and now you can have 255 76-seaters but you are still capped at 255 jumbo RJs. You do have an issue with a pump and dump, kind of an expensive way to do that given you now need to get rid of 1,000 pilots you hired and trained as you dump whatever the 717 replaced.
Under the TA, add the 717s and park 88s, increase the 76 seat fleet to 223 and the jumbo RJ fleet to 325. The former the PWA would’ve allowed only with growth of 75 aircraft, the latter the PWA would have never allowed.Under the PWA, Mainline has to grow from 715 aircraft to 767 aircraft before the 3:1 language is triggered and then the 76 seat fleet can grow from 153 airframes to the max 51+ seat allowance of 255 airframes which means the 70 seaters are pushed out.
Under the TA, the hull count language requiring Mainline to grow above 767 aircraft before 76 seaters are added is stricken. Now we do block hours.
Using Alfa’s provided number of 3.6M consolidated block hours for Mainline and DCI with 53.9% owned by Mainline means the current ratio is 1.17 (maybe 1.19) with us at 1.940M MBH and DCI at 1.657M DBH. Divide out by the respective fleets using the language of the TA and you get 3,428 hours per mainline NB non 763ER aircraft per year and 2,730 BH per DCI aircraft per year.
If DCI drops to 450/325 you get 1.228M DBH. At that point the 1.56 ratio is in effect and 1.56 x 1.228M DBH = 1.916M. So as long as we exceed 1.916M MBH then the ratio is satisfied, which means, as long as we keep our current 1.940M block hours then we’re in compliance.
BTW, a 1:1 replacement of 117 88s and 88 B717s obviously will not work, make those 739s not necessarily a 1:1 replacement and you can get rid of the 88 fleet without updating a single one for NextGen's 2020 requirement. Just update the 90s. Or raise the 717 fleet to 112 aircraft, I have an email from alpa saying that could be next if we just sign off on the TA.
So the language in the TA does not require mainline to grow but still allows them to grow the 76 seat fleet, whereas the PWA specifically required 767+ aircraft (52 more than now) to trigger 76-seat growth. If DCI drops to 450/325 you get 1.228M DBH. At that point the 1.56 ratio is in effect and 1.56 x 1.228M DBH = 1.916M. So as long as we exceed 1.916M MBH then the ratio is satisfied, which means, as long as we keep our current 1.940M block hours then we’re in compliance.
BTW, a 1:1 replacement of 117 88s and 88 B717s obviously will not work, make those 739s not necessarily a 1:1 replacement and you can get rid of the 88 fleet without updating a single one for NextGen's 2020 requirement. Just update the 90s. Or raise the 717 fleet to 112 aircraft, I have an email from alpa saying that could be next if we just sign off on the TA.
In a scenario where the 717s are added both under the TA and PWA, under the PWA you add 86 B717s and now you can have 255 76-seaters but you are still capped at 255 jumbo RJs. You do have an issue with a pump and dump, kind of an expensive way to do that given you now need to get rid of 1,000 pilots you hired and trained as you dump whatever the 717 replaced.
That is why I said the TA provides relief by allowing the 76 seat fleet to grow while not requiring mainline to grow as the PWA had. Not to mention allowing 70 seaters to stay whereas even the weak PWA required that.
So if their plan is not to grow mainline but grow the 76 seat fleet, well, the TA will now allow that.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 06-24-2012 at 06:31 AM.
06-24-2012 | 06:36 AM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2009
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I believe what I said is the case and here is why:
That is why I said the TA provides relief by allowing the 76 seat fleet to grow while not requiring mainline to grow as the PWA had. Not to mention allowing 70 seaters to stay whereas even the weak PWA required that.
So if their plan is not to grow mainline but grow the 76 seat fleet, well, the TA will now allow that.
According to what you posted above:
Under the PWA, Mainline has to grow from 715 aircraft to 767 aircraft before the 3:1 language is triggered and then the 76 seat fleet can grow from 153 airframes to the max 51+ seat allowance of 255 airframes which means the 70 seaters are pushed out.
Under the TA, the hull count language requiring Mainline to grow above 767 aircraft before 76 seaters are added is stricken. Now we do block hours.
In a scenario where the 717s are added both under the TA and PWA, under the PWA you add 86 B717s and now you can have 255 76-seaters but you are still capped at 255 jumbo RJs. You do have an issue with a pump and dump, kind of an expensive way to do that given you now need to get rid of 1,000 pilots you hired and trained as you dump whatever the 717 replaced.
Under the TA, add the 717s and park 88s, increase the 76 seat fleet to 223 and the jumbo RJ fleet to 325. The former the PWA would’ve allowed only with growth of 75 aircraft, the latter the PWA would have never allowed.Under the PWA, Mainline has to grow from 715 aircraft to 767 aircraft before the 3:1 language is triggered and then the 76 seat fleet can grow from 153 airframes to the max 51+ seat allowance of 255 airframes which means the 70 seaters are pushed out.
Under the TA, the hull count language requiring Mainline to grow above 767 aircraft before 76 seaters are added is stricken. Now we do block hours.
Using Alfa’s provided number of 3.6M consolidated block hours for Mainline and DCI with 53.9% owned by Mainline means the current ratio is 1.17 (maybe 1.19) with us at 1.940M MBH and DCI at 1.657M DBH. Divide out by the respective fleets using the language of the TA and you get 3,428 hours per mainline NB non 763ER aircraft per year and 2,730 BH per DCI aircraft per year.
If DCI drops to 450/325 you get 1.228M DBH. At that point the 1.56 ratio is in effect and 1.56 x 1.228M DBH = 1.916M. So as long as we exceed 1.916M MBH then the ratio is satisfied, which means, as long as we keep our current 1.940M block hours then we’re in compliance.
BTW, a 1:1 replacement of 117 88s and 88 B717s obviously will not work, make those 739s not necessarily a 1:1 replacement and you can get rid of the 88 fleet without updating a single one for NextGen's 2020 requirement. Just update the 90s. Or raise the 717 fleet to 112 aircraft, I have an email from alpa saying that could be next if we just sign off on the TA.
So the language in the TA does not require mainline to grow but still allows them to grow the 76 seat fleet, whereas the PWA specifically required 767+ aircraft (52 more than now) to trigger 76-seat growth. If DCI drops to 450/325 you get 1.228M DBH. At that point the 1.56 ratio is in effect and 1.56 x 1.228M DBH = 1.916M. So as long as we exceed 1.916M MBH then the ratio is satisfied, which means, as long as we keep our current 1.940M block hours then we’re in compliance.
BTW, a 1:1 replacement of 117 88s and 88 B717s obviously will not work, make those 739s not necessarily a 1:1 replacement and you can get rid of the 88 fleet without updating a single one for NextGen's 2020 requirement. Just update the 90s. Or raise the 717 fleet to 112 aircraft, I have an email from alpa saying that could be next if we just sign off on the TA.
In a scenario where the 717s are added both under the TA and PWA, under the PWA you add 86 B717s and now you can have 255 76-seaters but you are still capped at 255 jumbo RJs. You do have an issue with a pump and dump, kind of an expensive way to do that given you now need to get rid of 1,000 pilots you hired and trained as you dump whatever the 717 replaced.
That is why I said the TA provides relief by allowing the 76 seat fleet to grow while not requiring mainline to grow as the PWA had. Not to mention allowing 70 seaters to stay whereas even the weak PWA required that.
So if their plan is not to grow mainline but grow the 76 seat fleet, well, the TA will now allow that.
Delivery of additional 76-seat aircraft is prohibited until SNB aircraft are first added to the mainline fleet, and then, a simultaneous reduction of 50-seat aircraft is required.* This is an event-based process and not time or date-based.* As Delta implements their business plan and adds more SNBs, only then may they add more 76-seat aircraft, while also removing 50-seat aircraft.* Once a 50-seat aircraft is removed, the number of allowable 50-seat aircraft is capped at that level until the next removal and so on.* That cap can then never increase.
As SNBs are added to the fleet, allowing faster access to the first additional 76-seat aircraft, a required minimum ratio of domestic mainline block hours to DCI block hours will be established and must be maintained.* (For this purpose, domestic mainline block hours includes flying on all narrow body aircraft and all B-767-300 (non – ER) aircraft.)* Under the minimum block hour ratio in this TA, Delta pilots will fly no less than 61% of the total Delta domestic system block hours once the last group of 76-seat aircraft are added.* In other words, any reduction of domestic mainline block hours below a 1.56 ratio will trigger a mandatory reduction in DCI block hours in order to maintain the 1.56 ratio. *Any future growth of Delta aircraft, will, by definition, be mainline growth.* Even if Delta does not fully execute its business plan, we will have in place guarantees for our share of the domestic system flying, guarantees that do not exist under the current contract.* We will be the only legacy airline pilot group that has gained domestic flying without flying small aircraft and/or agree to substantially lower pay rates or different work rules.
06-24-2012 | 06:51 AM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 758
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I do not see that 76s can grow without growing mainline. First, not a single 76s can show up until all of the 717s are on the property. Second, once the RJ cap is reached it can't be grown above that regardless of any increase in mainline flying. Third, DAL has announced no plans of retiring the 88's. In fact they have announced a plan to keep them around for quite some time unlike the DC9's. There is also a plan to upgrade the cockpits to satisfy NextGen requirements. More block hours mean more aircraft based on the contractual staffing requirement.
Delivery of additional 76-seat aircraft is prohibited until SNB aircraft are first added to the mainline fleet, and then, a simultaneous reduction of 50-seat aircraft is required.* This is an event-based process and not time or date-based.* As Delta implements their business plan and adds more SNBs, only then may they add more 76-seat aircraft, while also removing 50-seat aircraft.* Once a 50-seat aircraft is removed, the number of allowable 50-seat aircraft is capped at that level until the next removal and so on.* That cap can then never increase.
As SNBs are added to the fleet, allowing faster access to the first additional 76-seat aircraft, a required minimum ratio of domestic mainline block hours to DCI block hours will be established and must be maintained.* (For this purpose, domestic mainline block hours includes flying on all narrow body aircraft and all B-767-300 (non – ER) aircraft.)* Under the minimum block hour ratio in this TA, Delta pilots will fly no less than 61% of the total Delta domestic system block hours once the last group of 76-seat aircraft are added.* In other words, any reduction of domestic mainline block hours below a 1.56 ratio will trigger a mandatory reduction in DCI block hours in order to maintain the 1.56 ratio. *Any future growth of Delta aircraft, will, by definition, be mainline growth.* Even if Delta does not fully execute its business plan, we will have in place guarantees for our share of the domestic system flying, guarantees that do not exist under the current contract.* We will be the only legacy airline pilot group that has gained domestic flying without flying small aircraft and/or agree to substantially lower pay rates or different work rules.
Delivery of additional 76-seat aircraft is prohibited until SNB aircraft are first added to the mainline fleet, and then, a simultaneous reduction of 50-seat aircraft is required.* This is an event-based process and not time or date-based.* As Delta implements their business plan and adds more SNBs, only then may they add more 76-seat aircraft, while also removing 50-seat aircraft.* Once a 50-seat aircraft is removed, the number of allowable 50-seat aircraft is capped at that level until the next removal and so on.* That cap can then never increase.
As SNBs are added to the fleet, allowing faster access to the first additional 76-seat aircraft, a required minimum ratio of domestic mainline block hours to DCI block hours will be established and must be maintained.* (For this purpose, domestic mainline block hours includes flying on all narrow body aircraft and all B-767-300 (non – ER) aircraft.)* Under the minimum block hour ratio in this TA, Delta pilots will fly no less than 61% of the total Delta domestic system block hours once the last group of 76-seat aircraft are added.* In other words, any reduction of domestic mainline block hours below a 1.56 ratio will trigger a mandatory reduction in DCI block hours in order to maintain the 1.56 ratio. *Any future growth of Delta aircraft, will, by definition, be mainline growth.* Even if Delta does not fully execute its business plan, we will have in place guarantees for our share of the domestic system flying, guarantees that do not exist under the current contract.* We will be the only legacy airline pilot group that has gained domestic flying without flying small aircraft and/or agree to substantially lower pay rates or different work rules.
06-24-2012 | 06:57 AM
#56
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 557
Likes: 4
Number of additional 76-Seat Aircraft
1-10
11-20
21-30
31-40
41-50
51-60
61-70
Obligation of Company to first purchase additional SNB Aircraft (per 76-seat aircraft)
1.25
1.25
1.25
1.25
1.25
1.25
1.25
Obligation of Company to remove 50 seat aircraft from fleet (per 76-seat aircraft)
2.7
2.7
2.8
2.9
3.0
3.1
4.6
Minimum ratio of Mainline Domestic Block Hours to DCI Block Hours
1.10 1.25 1.30 1.34 1.40 1.46 1.56
Minimum Mainline share of Domestic Block hours
52.4% 55.6% 56.5% 57.4% 58.3% 59.5% 60.9%
06-24-2012 | 06:58 AM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
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With regards to your point about not a single 76 can show up until all 717s are on property. i do not see that in this TA. There is not requirement that these are growth aircraft. The only requirement is a domestic block hour ratio in which the snapshot is not taken until July 2014. The 50 seater reduction does not have to be implemented until January 2014.
06-24-2012 | 07:08 AM
#58
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
Likes: 0
From: Light Chop
RM, it's easier for me to respond inside your post:
Problem is, it's fine for the 717s to be growth airplanes but the PWA's language could have remained if that was the case. They took it out and replaced it by a ratio that allows the 717s to be replacement aircraft and still have 76 seat growth.
I do not see that 76s can grow without growing mainline. I do not see where it says mainline is required to grow. The ratio does not require it. The 440+N language that did require growth is stricken. First, not a single 76s can show up until all of the 717s are on the property. True. Second, once the RJ cap is reached it can't be grown above that regardless of any increase in mainline flying. True. Third, DAL has announced no plans of retiring the 88's. They haven't committed to the cockpit overhaul either, waiting now for 2 years to determine if the ROI is there but they pressed ahead with it anyways. I could easily see a MD90 upgrade and not an 88. Not to mention, currently 53% of our domestic fleet has 150-160 seats, only 15% is below that number. A 717 swap for 88s means you shift to where you could balance the fleet and bring that below 150 seat number up to 32%, i.e. rightsizing. In fact they have announced a plan to keep them around for quite some time unlike the DC9's. I'm not putting much stock in that as they change those when necessary and without hesitation. There is also a plan to upgrade the cockpits to satisfy NextGen requirements. See above. More block hours mean more aircraft based on the contractual staffing requirement. It does not, see my previous post.
Delivery of additional 76-seat aircraft is prohibited until SNB aircraft are first added to the mainline fleet, and then, a simultaneous reduction of 50-seat aircraft is required.* This is an event-based process and not time or date-based.* As Delta implements their business plan and adds more SNBs, only then may they add more 76-seat aircraft, while also removing 50-seat aircraft.* Once a 50-seat aircraft is removed, the number of allowable 50-seat aircraft is capped at that level until the next removal and so on.* That cap can then never increase. All true but RM that does not prohibit removing aircraft to grow the 76 seat fleet as the PWA does. Adding 717s and removing 88s is not prohibited. I think you're viewing the addition of SNBs as requiring them to be pure growth, if that was the case the PWA's 767 type language didn't need to be stricken. They struck it out.
As SNBs are added to the fleet, allowing faster access to the first additional 76-seat aircraft, a required minimum ratio of domestic mainline block hours to DCI block hours will be established and must be maintained.* (For this purpose, domestic mainline block hours includes flying on all narrow body aircraft and all B-767-300 (non – ER) aircraft.)* Under the minimum block hour ratio in this TA, Delta pilots will fly no less than 61% of the total Delta domestic system block hours once the last group of 76-seat aircraft are added.* In other words, any reduction of domestic mainline block hours below a 1.56 ratio which happens once DCI has 214 76-seaters up from 153 will trigger a mandatory reduction in DCI block hours in order to maintain the 1.56 ratio. *Any future growth of Delta aircraft, will, by definition, be mainline growth. Note it does not say currently per the ratio by definition we will grow, it is saying once at DCI 450/325 (and after TA 2015... cough cough) if DAL grows we grow first and/or more than DCI. Even if Delta does not fully execute its business plan, we will have in place guarantees for our share of the domestic system flying, guarantees that do not exist under the current contract.* We can have a bigger share of the pie without growing a single block hour or requiring more pilots. We will be the only legacy airline pilot group that has gained domestic flying without flying small aircraft and/or agree to substantially lower pay rates or different work rules. Proves my point.
Delivery of additional 76-seat aircraft is prohibited until SNB aircraft are first added to the mainline fleet, and then, a simultaneous reduction of 50-seat aircraft is required.* This is an event-based process and not time or date-based.* As Delta implements their business plan and adds more SNBs, only then may they add more 76-seat aircraft, while also removing 50-seat aircraft.* Once a 50-seat aircraft is removed, the number of allowable 50-seat aircraft is capped at that level until the next removal and so on.* That cap can then never increase. All true but RM that does not prohibit removing aircraft to grow the 76 seat fleet as the PWA does. Adding 717s and removing 88s is not prohibited. I think you're viewing the addition of SNBs as requiring them to be pure growth, if that was the case the PWA's 767 type language didn't need to be stricken. They struck it out.
As SNBs are added to the fleet, allowing faster access to the first additional 76-seat aircraft, a required minimum ratio of domestic mainline block hours to DCI block hours will be established and must be maintained.* (For this purpose, domestic mainline block hours includes flying on all narrow body aircraft and all B-767-300 (non – ER) aircraft.)* Under the minimum block hour ratio in this TA, Delta pilots will fly no less than 61% of the total Delta domestic system block hours once the last group of 76-seat aircraft are added.* In other words, any reduction of domestic mainline block hours below a 1.56 ratio which happens once DCI has 214 76-seaters up from 153 will trigger a mandatory reduction in DCI block hours in order to maintain the 1.56 ratio. *Any future growth of Delta aircraft, will, by definition, be mainline growth. Note it does not say currently per the ratio by definition we will grow, it is saying once at DCI 450/325 (and after TA 2015... cough cough) if DAL grows we grow first and/or more than DCI. Even if Delta does not fully execute its business plan, we will have in place guarantees for our share of the domestic system flying, guarantees that do not exist under the current contract.* We can have a bigger share of the pie without growing a single block hour or requiring more pilots. We will be the only legacy airline pilot group that has gained domestic flying without flying small aircraft and/or agree to substantially lower pay rates or different work rules. Proves my point.
06-24-2012 | 07:11 AM
#59
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
Likes: 0
From: Light Chop
Can't find the post as someone had taken a picture of the roadshow PDF and posted it but look on page 13 of the C2012 TA Roadshow Handout (PDF) and Scope - DCI Cap table.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 06-24-2012 at 07:46 AM.
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