The one-size fits all arguement is narrow minded. Is there a reason you think every union is evil?

I submit that unions are beneficial to companies, allowing them to extrapolate their unit labor costs several years forward without leaving them suceptible to short term market pressures driving up costs as we have seen at JB. There are rumors that our past CFO was in favor of unions for this reason and he was shown the door.

Honestly, I came to JB for the same reasons you mentioned. I also worry about those same issues coming to JetBlue if we bring a union on property. I also hate the sense of entitlement that unions often bring. I also recognize that our upper management isn't addressing the issues that pilots keep complaining about. Most of us just want industry standard total cOmpensation and we are far off that in many areas. I and most of my fellow JB pilots are patient and willing to work with management to remedy these shortcomings. That being said, I really don't like that they can just change the peer set on our pay when they want to. Last year we got .9% Peer set raise this year we got 2.2% peer set raise, I get that they see and don't like this trend. Management sees the industry moving in favor of pay increases for pilots and they are trying to change the standard (in their favor) which they established. I get that as a pilot group we are often just a cost to be managed by upper lever management but without a CBA management can just do what ever they want to us with no recourse, it is not personal against management it is just a business decision that I choose too make. JB has teams of lawyers at their disposal, I don't. Without finding another job I see no other choice.

The "if you vote in a union, I'll go elsewhere" mentality is just as short sighted as "unions make better airlines." The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Airlines function well when management and the employees work well together. When management makes empty promises to their employees is when the rumblings of fighting back start. I take it despite the good relations between management and the pilots Southwest is a no-go because they're union as well?

Other then Virgin and JetBlue their really aren't any national / destination carriers that aren't union. I really don't think JB will stay non union for long either, IMHO.

Please look elsewhere. The tide is turning and a union will be here soon or we will be sold to a union carrier. Have been union and non-union I'll take a union carrier anyday. When I came here 10 years ago, mistakenly I thought this place was different, but it's not. In fact I think our style of management is much more evil than any legacy carrier. When I worked for a legacy carrier

I figured you guys would like that better than someone like me trying to come there, and then complaining about the union.

I know that not all unions are the same, but they all share the same foundation. Without proper attention, that foundation shows through, and anyone who thinks for themselves is vilified. I believe that in a union, the whole group gets dragged down to the lowest common denominator, and in some carriers, that's pretty doggone low. Maybe that isn't the case at JB?

I apologize if this was already answered, but what's the latest on new hire classes?

Our system bid closes Monday; should be about 12 E190 FO vacancies. Last I heard was a small class in Sept.

thank you.....................................

May be a few more depending on which aircraft-seat-base the 12 upgrades come from.

I knew the day would come when they would start to squeeze the pilots, but I really didn't imagine it would be while we're in the black. It scares me when I think about what might happen if we go back into the red...

All great points and reasons for a CBA. I have still not achieved ALPA Zen. I'm trying.

Youll get there grasshopper ;) At least you have an open mind

We don't need you to reach ALPA zen. We need a yes vote to legal, resources, support and a say. Zen comes when you get involved and make Jetblue ALPA want you want it to be.

Until then we all continue to suffer.

Just remember, the only thing worse than having ALPA as your union is not having ALPA as your union. Not a glowing endorsement I know, think of it as buying into a franchise. Over 90% of all airline pilots are unionized, are we the smart ones or the dumb ones?

The bottom line is I wish we didn't have to unionize. I hoped that JB management would just stick to the high road and not do these shady things that they have been doing lately. I also would love to see us start up JBPA and not have to invite the devil in.

Really?????????

Who do you think is to blame for Jetblue Pilots being compensated below average in every category?


I'll give you a clue..............................It aint a union!


T

Southerner is probably a Jetblue management lackey and if not I guarantee he will never work here.

I wasn't talking about compensation. Guys, I think we will have to respectfully agree to disagree on this issue.

Good luck in your union drive.

I work for compensation. What do you work for?


T

Just got done browsing the AMR Bankrupty section, and as stated on the forum and by other's fears, AMR has every intention of buying Jetblue. I quote from the forum:

Someone asked for this to be posted. I've already voted NO, not on emotion, but i've read the whole LBFO (last best final offer) i've listened to 2 of the 3 teleconferences and attended a roadshow.


Executive Summary: IF the American Airlines / APA Tentative Agreement were to be voted down by a close margin, American Airlines would immediately Re-negotiate to gain a speedy resolution with this key labor group.


Fellow APA Pilots,

We have less than a week before the final tabulation results of American Airlines Last Best Final Offer is revealed. I would be terribly remiss if I did NOT disclose to the membership a dialog session which transpired in Marina Del Rey, CA. The locale was the Warehouse, a restaurant, and I was accompanied by 15 fellow pilots of the LAX domicile, ranging from line pilots, check airmen, Flight Department Pilots who all dined with Captain John Hale and Senior VP of Operations, Mr. Jim Ream.

The meeting occurred on the eve of July 26th. Captain Hale was the financial host of the get together which was arranged specifically to give both Captain Hale and Mr. Ream a cross stratification from the most Junior in our base ranks to the most Senior, from managerial types to union advocates, for the sole purpose of edifying where the rank and file actually stand on this LBFO.

Once dinner was concluded, the small talk ceased as we moved to a more private setting in the restaurant where Captain Hale delivered some opening remarks then handed off the dialog to Mr. Ream who gave us a Macro Economic overview of American Airlines and the goals and Objectives he and others are trying to achieve.

After an opening question by one of our former negotiators was posed regarding the culture of distrust and apparent over reach of this TA, I followed on to ask Mr. Ream a multi faceted question relevant to his Macro vision, which is the heart of my post today.

I stated to Mr. Ream, since it is the public posture of APA for regime change with US AIR being the desired player, that the equity ploy (including F/As & mechanics) would still leave organized labor 15% short of a blocking vote. I felt the POR blocking strategy was indeed a long shot and would very possibly still find us working under a very draconian TA for the next 10 years.

I further stated, I feel American would pursue purchasing JetBlue. Therefore, the existing TA as it stands, leaves the American Airline pilot exposed.

In short, I explained that I felt manipulated and used by BOTH sides and he would not achieve labor peace with the pilots when the depth of deception was revealed. He appeared surprised by how much push back he was sensing from the pilots for he had been led to believe that this TA was a good deal for the pilots inside of bankruptcy.

My question was could He alter the TA before the vote was tabulated, if we could propose a viable argument for why such amendment was necessary.
Mr. Ream responded:

(Not exact quotes, but accurate content, vetted by three other pilots present.)

1) It is the desire of AAL to purchase JetBlue. This would be completed through a complex deal including debt, private equity and preferential shares. He explained that we are far along the road to negotiating this deal and the critical part is HAVING Contracts in place with LABOR. He further acknowledged that the same people that would be loaning us the money for Americans desired POR were consolidating Americans debt. By doing this, they are buying debt at a discounted rate, gaining power on the UCC and have little exposure for they know the financing is viable to emerge from BK.

2) IF the TA were to be voted down by a close margin, they would immediately RE-negotiate to gain a speedy solution with labor. Time being the critical factor to American Airlines due to the in place financing. He stated, the labor stress just ADDS to the Cost of Financing.

3) IF the TA passes, they have done their job for the creditors and have achieved the best deal possible for the debtors.

4) He indicated that changing the TA at this late stage was problematic. The money factor being locked and reported to the UCC. However, he wanted to hear what the pilots felt were the problem areas of the TA.

Dinner was concluded and some very valuable information was exchanged between all parties in attendance. The remainder of the eve was spent discussing the TA and how it affects the pilots. Mr. Ream asked those in attendance to send him 5 bullet points they would want to see in TA #2.

Friday / 27 July:

I was informed that a pilot who was present, had written a debrief and forwarded it to Negotiating Chairman Neil Roghair as well as both LAX Base Representatives.
The remainder of my day was spent sending the attendees 5 Bullet points to Captain Hale and Captain Smith.

Saturday / 28 July:

Captain Hale informed me he was going to be addressing MR. Horton, Ms. Denise Lynn (HR) and would be informing them of the pilots view of this TA from our dialog session.

I assured Captain Hale I would not disclose nor campaign the content of the Warehouse Revelations for five days to allow him to possibly get an internal solution to the very defective TA.

In Conclusion,

True to my word, I promised not to disclose nor discuss the events of 26 July 2012 in order to allow Captain Hale to affect an amendment. Nothing has transpired from either Captain Hales focused efforts, nor has the APA in any official capacity commented on these developments.
PLEASE, Understand this.

1) Americans Stand Alone Plan is fictitious; JetBlue is their goal.
2) The APA is so myopic on management change that we are continuing a course of action, so shaky and anemic in terms of substantiation to the failed logic of you wont have to fly under it.
3) If you Vote YES / In favor of this LBFO, you will likely suffer under its compromised content for a minimum of six years.
4) If you elect to REJECT this TA, American will renegotiate to gain a labor agreement.
5) Last, but certainly not least, I am staking my own personal reputation behind stating these facts of the evenings dialog. My passionate pursuit of doing what is right has led me to revealing these details to you today.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the APA, look within your soul and please find the strength to vote with your dignity intact and overcome your fear.

Respectfully and In Unity,
name deleted by 7576FO
LAX 767 FO International

I think you misread my original post, or at least misinterpreted it.

Yeah, it was hard to follow. I'm not sure you used "lowest common denominator" correctly. What did you mean?

I thought the DR used the lowest common denominator... Pilot health care, retirment, sick/vacation time, LOL, LTD, STD, ect. = same as ramp, flight attendant and cleaning personel... errr umm, sorry crew members. All the same from the most educated and highly trained to the one they found yesterday that didn't finish high school. Same Same! Unless your managment... then your special.

Last time I checked, over the last 12 years, UAL has furlouhed, twice! CAL has furloughed, Us Air, laughable, DAL furloughed twice and BK, TWA bought and let go pilots under "protection", Not to mention Airlines gone under, Midway, Comair, Easter, etc...We have hired since 2001 and are growing and investing. We make decent wages, better than most legacys. Insurance can improve but overall i think we are doing ok, and no CBA. I vote smart. Thats just me, and apparently the majority I fly with and the voting majority agree. I for one hope it stays the course.

The ignorance in this post is stunning.

Do you have homeowner's insurance for your house? It has never caught on fire, or been in a flood, so what's the need? Houses down the street burn down, and floods only happen in Katrina, so.... it would never happen at your place right?

Guess your airlines days have been pretty limited....... I am not a fan of unions but view them as a necessary evil in our industry. Good luck in your airline career. :(

Southerner, Its a great place to work and for the most the extremists that dream of a union are a minority especially on this whine board. This issue and crying of a union is absolutely getting old and I find myself avoiding this altogether. What I have found is that 95% of every pilot I fly with and associate with do not want ALPA on board although we all agree we can improve some areas, but what airline can't? The "specualtion" of the " pilots that have the know" because of business sense or what they hear is laughable. REALITY is we have hired hundreds in last 5 years and 300 in last two years. We are growing, are getting airplanes, new terminals, and have motivational letters on remaining as such which if you care to believe or not is an individual choice, however, personally i enjoy the kharma as opposed to the last three ALPA carriers I was associated with. I want no part of the mentality it provides to the workforce and the fact we have people here with the name calling and agendas just endorses the friction and division it causes. The ALPA BullS..t is tiresome yet dominates every forum board luckily only from the same few. We have the youngest fleet with the youngest Capts on board making pretty dam good money and FO after 1st year is not bad either. NOT the best or tops but its better than AA,UAL/CAL,USAIR and others. Are others better? Sure but hey I dont care of the others, I work here, and like I mentioned the REALITY is we are making money and growing. When I read a sentence that starts with " I like to see what happens when....." or "just wait till AA buys us...." or " I just read that...." you get the jist...its laughable. Some people have nothing better to do than complain or LOOK for faults. Unfortunately I have experienced that at every airline and have come to realize its just a select few that no matter what happens they will find fault. We can improve here, insurance is a hot topic and I agree we should take steps to improve on that, everything else, I rely on myslef with companys contribution as a bonus. Its a good place, good people, pilot group, flt attendants, gate etc. I perosnally am happy here and have no desire to go elsewhere. Hope you ignore the negative statements and the extremists who refuse to be happy and have big picture. There is a reason we are successful, and have not furloughed, and why whether others want to believe it or not WANT to work here, its because it is a good place to be. When others start to hire so beit, let them hire. History over the last 12 years have shown others to hire only to furlough. Not specualtion, thats FACT. ALPAs fault, probably not, but it sure as hell didn't help. Other wise we would not have so many legacy furloughed Cpt here now would we? Come to think of it, I wouldnt be here, I was suppose to be "protected from all 3 different ALPA carriers also. It is what it is, Come joing the happy majority...Ignore the negative blasts I get from this post, Im sure it will be Troll", clueless, head in sand, bluejuicer, sad, etc...Im just a pilot working JB that is actually happy, and have better things in life to do than complain. And for the most part Im not alone....Cheers...:)

Not stunning, reality...get overyourself. Look at history with EVERY airline that has had ALPA or a union. Including the three I have been with ALL ALPA..Thats my reality, ALPA had their chance mulitple times, FAIL MISERABLY!
Ill try this now, an so far Im happy. Don't like how I think or what I believe? I dont care. Keep standing on your soapbox as I laugh walking by u.

Like! Please post more, love your insight and your avatar is a pleasant distraction. :)

FACT you have no say in your benefits, pay, career

p1ayn you are not a troll or a juicer, I believe you are just wearing blinders and chose not to see the reality of your relationship with this company.

I am no union extremist, and really enjoy working here, but I am scared of placing 100% of my livelyhood into the hands of someone who cant legally act in my best interest. Dave and the rest of the ELT is legally required to represent the shareholders and act on what the Board of Directors tells him to do. That is a FACT.

All that I want is a legal party on my side to represent my needs and a document that lists those terms. It is just business.

Thanks for that.

To answer those who suggested that the reason I am anti-union is due to my lack of experience in the airlines, I have plenty of experience. I have experience watching ALPA represent the major airline partners to the detriment of the regionals they also represent. I have experience watching the majority of our pilots ignore what is going on in the union, and thus the only people who volunteer are those who are ignorant and worthless. I have witnessed a few close friends try to go and volunteer in the union to make it better, and get run out/threatened/demoralized. Yes. I have experience.

I have experience seeing that the unions of the trades in Pennsylvania are no different from the unions of the airlines. The "lowest common denominator" reference is not to pay or benefits. That reference is to the aptitude of the people running the union. The group is no better than the weakest pilot, and invariably that weakest pilot is on the ALPA pro-standards committee.

Anyway, I'm not terribly opposed to an in-house union, but your union is only going to be as good as the people running it.

I meant it when I said good luck in your union drive. I hope you get the union you deserve.

Right there... that is the source of your stunning ignorance.

ALPA didn't cause your furlough.
ALPA didn't cause your company to go out of business.

Your merger, furlough, and trip through CH11 were all the result of a poor management team.

Until you understand that little tidbit... I consider your ignorance simply stunning!

I think it has more to do with the industry as a whole rather than ALPA. Skybus wasn't union, and they didn't even last a year. Every sector has their outliers, and jetBlue could be the airline sector's outlier. Or maybe it hasn't been around long enough to hit the stages the other ones have. Same with Vigin America.

The insurance comparison is an accurate one. I don't WANT to pay 1.9% out of my check. God knows I could spend that money in other ways. I also don't want to pay the money for car or homeowner's insurance, either. But I'm in a heap of trouble if I don't have them and need them. I currently work for an ALPA carrier, and I shudder to think what things would be like around here without a CBA. They're already trying to get it blown back into the early 2000s in bankruptcy as it is....

In the meantime, JB pilots ride the coatails of union contracts.
Needless to say, peer set average hasn't really been achieved.

And, Thanks for that!!

???????????

Yes, and Jetblue was bailed out by Lufthansa. Funny how low cost union carriers like SWA and AT didn't have to do the same.


Over the last 12 years huh? I wonder what the cause could have been.

Why don't you go do some research? look at the causal forecasting the airlines had in place around, oh I don't know, say September 10th 2001. Then, come back to me with their revised forecasts and corrective action which many announced just after September 11th.

I know of one external variable that hit the Legacies like a Mack Truck. Any idea what that might have been? I'll give you a clue, it wasn't internal variables like union action!

BTW, non union carriers like Skybus, EOS, and Maxjet all suffered due to the same external variable.


JJ