That's like saying look at the history of cars with 4 wheels - They all crash.

Your compensation and benefits are NOTHING to laugh about!

It's obvious you know very little about labor economics. The laugh is on you!


T

Many union carriers including CAL/DAL/AT/AK/SWA/FEX have all hired in recent years and will be hiring a lot more soon.

Jetblue is growing???????????????

Jetblue aren't even accepting apps!!!!!!!!!

If you vote smart, why is your compensation and benefits below industry average? Why, unlike any other Major Airline pilots, do you have the same health insurance as a rampie or gate agent? Aren't you held to higher standards?


Voting smart??????????????????


Ignorance is bliss I guess.



T

????????????????????

You are correct our health insurance is far below industry standard. They can't really fix that without a CBA. It is all part of the JB igalotarin (probably misspelled) philosophy. However, just because we arent accepting apps doesn't mean we aren't growing. We are getting more aircraft this year and for the foreseeable future, we also have been the only pax carrying airline hiring other then Virgin. Everyone else is shrinking to profitability while we are growing and coming up with new routes all the time (4 new destinations announced last month). I want to see a CBA on property as much as most of the guys I fly with, it is Just hard to get excited about ALPA. It is kinda like bringing in the mongooses to kill the snakes, you just end up with a mongoose problem!!

Keep this in mind. Every major airline with a union is profitable AND they have better health insurance, retirement, scope, STD/LTD/LOL and most importantly the ability negotiate. Your mongoose to snake comparison is fair and as you astutely pointed out the latter is the better problem to have.

ALPA is not the end all be all and the level headed memebers of the OC can attest to that. But in our case it is an necessary evil in order to fight a far superior opponent.

American Airlines is coming. How prepared do you want to be.

I will still vote yes for union rep, even if it is the mongoose. I am just not going to be excited about. And to answer the question about American, most ( including myself) have no clue if we are or aren't protected. As the 2 million dollar (supposed) fund for us won't last long with teams of 300 to 500 dollar an hour lawyers start eating away at it.

Do you guys think that AA is going to be able to pull off a purchase? There is a class starting in September, would those new hires be completely screwed if there were a purchase?

Dude, Seriously?????????

JJ

I'm not excited about it either. As I mentioned for me it is a necessary evil.

As for the protected part there were 4 legal firms contracted by the PVC to review our PEA's and each one stated we were not protected in a CBA world. Feel free to verify this with your PVC rep. As for the $2,000,000 your PEA clearly states that money is afforded to your AFTER your exhaust your own personal resources. In the likely event we are bought you are unlikely to see any money (and in the imortal words of our CFO) NONE WHATSOEVER.

This is Jetblue reality and in my opinion this pilot group is Jetblue Crazy!

Wow isn't that comforting!! I just got off first year pay, I have no resources. I will give my PVC rep a call. Thanks for the heads up!

insurance
 

You would have to spend huge amounts of supposed negotiating capital to get this insurance and the the language you talk of?
I do agree with your opinion that premiums are going up across the country
If I dont have insurance through JB (through my wife), why would I want to spend that kind of capital in supposed negotiations. It does not help me or many other JB pilots that don't have the company insurance. No thanks ,not interested. I'd like to spend the money elsewhere, where it were to help everyone!

It's funny how many of you talk so venomously to those that don't agree with a union yet hide behind your avatars?! I guess you will never be happy? JetBlue is a great place to work period. A union would not help this to be a great place. Plenty of examples out there in previous posts to prove this. Things continue to get better here and there is proof of that........

Things continue to get better here and JetBlue is great, period? Wow; usually only a fool speaks in absolutes. I'm glad you use your wife's insurance so the disaster about to befall most of our families won't affect you. You've got yours, so screw the rest of us huh?

I don't attack most anti union guys, some are dear friends. Statements like yours are so willfully ignorant as to be infuriating, however. I also haven't seen you eschew an avatar for your real identity...

?
 

Yea cause thats what I said? Not even close......Another venomous attack from a pro union guy? Should I expect anything less? Thanks

Below average compensation and benefits does not make Jetblue a great place to work. Period!


Things continue to get better? In terms of what?


Some people really do aim low!


T

Actually I directly quoted you. I guess having your own words repeated counts as a venomous attack?

For those in the pool or considering work at JetBlue, understand that 95 percent of us on both sides of the issue can play nice, have a beer together, and use Bluepilots or this forum to vent. The 5 percent can be a real doozy, though. Also please understand that the issues are very real, and verifiable as concrete facts. The more "hyper" among us tend to take our skepticism of the non-CBA environment personally, for reasons I don't understand…

Having only been employed by JB just under a year and this being my first ever airline, I'd like to consider myself a transparent person. Even I can point out the JB management B.S. I deal with it all the time in my Guard Unit. I, too, am not crazy about unions, but I do think the mother of all BOHICA's is on the horizon (albeit merger with AMR), and if we don't act soon and vote in ALPA, we're toast! I agree with the lawyers our PVC hired to comprehend our PEA toilet paper...we would be screwed in an acquisition, and I'm not ready to be out on the street without a job...yet!

Agreed.


Mgmt were given a real bird in the hand when unionization was voted down. The "greatest competitive advantage" they were handed was COMPLETE control over productivity! If they had agreed to compensate Pilots above average all across the board, they would still have this, the most significant competitive advantage possible. But, that didn't happen.

What's really amazing, is that Pilots don't even question why.:eek:


JJ

.......
 

I am thankfull that these forums represent a minority. This is not a place that will make JetBlue better. There are other avenues to do that. As you can see anyone that is positive is attacked by the negative minority. This solves nothing at all.

As great as unions can be for us, sometimes they can handcuff an employer into losing money due to high wage demands, pensions, and health benefits. Air Canada is a prime example.

However, I DO understand the need for them...I'm just making the point.

Agreed...be careful what you wish for. You just might get it!:eek:

What might those be? You don't have a bargaining agent or a means to negotiate!

I believe in straight talk when it comes to business. Let's put the whole union/ non-union debate aside. Jetblue Pilots are compensated below average all across the board. Why do you think that is?

Are you naive enough to think your job is safer than that of your peers at DAL/SWA/AK/UPS/FEX because you are non-union and compensated below average?


Let me tell you something; It is NOT! Don't take my word for it. Go ask any labor economist.


JJ

Your compensation level isn't a significant factor in the viability of your Airline.

The Airlines have been affected by significant external variables in recent years. This has caused huge losses to the Legacies. Jetblue hasn't been subject to quite the same variables but, nevertheless, has posted significant losses in the past. This was NOT due to labor costs!


T

Already got it:S

Air Canada just went to arbitration with their pilots union, and won. How's about this for a contract:

In addition to lowered salaries (4th year FO on ANY aircraft makes just $67K/yr...which is not enough to live on in Canada when over half of that is taxed and the cost of living is very high), but scope is completely wiped out.

The new contract provides Air Canada with the ability to get rid of 60 A320s and 60 Embraer 190s. The purpose of this is so they can send the aircraft to their new OFFSHORE BASED (yes thats right) Low Cost Carrier. You fellas think the scope erosion on the Delta TA was bad?...

:(

Well in the case of AC, who I was referring to, the pension plans were costing AC hundreds of millions each year. It just wasn't sustainable, and the pilots weren't willing to give it up even though it was running them into the ground.

Ouch that hurts. Where is the offshore company located and are there restrictions about cabotage in Canada? That could be foreshadowing for the US future.

It remains to be seen. Essentially, the way I understand it is that it will be based offshore, however, I do believe they plan to hire mostly Canadian pilots...however at greatly reduced pay rates. We'll see how it turns out.

This is the beginning of the "regional jet" industry in Canada, which has never existed.

I still believe in the motivational letters we receive. I believe those motivational letters will protect me when Jetblue is bought. Motivational letters are truly better than having a CBA in place.

Dude. You SERIOUSLY need to study what has transpired with the B6 pilot group for the last 6 years. If you lived each step of PCG1, PCG2, the Draft FSM, and the forced Sandy FSM... there is no way you can make the statements you do (at least with a straight face). The best thing you can do for yourself is track down a Sorbie, an Evans, or a Tarvin and find out how things went down in the past.

If you don't understand the past, you are allowing yourself to be puppet.

Sadly, I know many people who actually believe the motivational letters and how the company will look after them. Just look at the facts of the compensation, no scope and pea's that aren't worth the paper they are written on. Do people realize that if a merger happened they could just let the pea's expire and the company has no obligation to extend them for another 5 years?

Success is not just a function of profits. SWA is one of the the most unionized company and they are profitable, AND take care of their employees with good pay, benefits, work rules, etc. Most companies get the union they deserves.

It is your attitude and lack of understanding of the industry and unions are sad. JetBlue's failures to live up to many broken promises are why we have below average retirement, medical, LOL/STD/LTD/OJI, work rules and no say in ANYTHING! We are totally unprotected in a merger/buyout and will get screwed if it does happen. JetBlue has been building this company on the backs of the employees for 10+ years. Our problems is that we have too many like your self that don't understand the facts and are not interested in JetBlue, but in themselves (its all about me crowd).

I am sorry that you can't understand any of this. I can only hope we get to vote again before you arrive! But if not, then you can join us on the bottom of what ever list we get stapled to. (you will be the bottom of the bottom of the bottom)

Just my opinion......

FNG

ps. I have not found a single union pilot at any major airline that would give up his union and union based benefits. They may b1tch about the union and want changes and improvements, but NONE would give them up and vote to be non-union at their current job. That alone speaks volumes!!!

Dude, Airlines do know their labor costs because they are locked in for years under a CBA. Causal forecasting is conducted on the basis of GDP, Oil prices, and capacity in the system. That's it.

You seem to be under the impression that the highest paying Airlines are the ones that will fail. WRONG!

To those of us who understand business, it's no surprize that Airlines like Skybus filed chapter 7. It certainly wasn't due to labor costs.

Jetblue has posted significant losses in the past. Again, that wasn't due to labor costs!


You would forego industry standard compensation, benefits, resources, and protections because of the attitudes of certain people, as you see them?


You need to go back to college (assuming you ever did graduate) and study Business management, Psychology, and Labor economics.



JJ

Southerner thinks that pilot union is the same as auto/steal worker union. Dude, we're not coal miners or trash collectors...

I know people have trained you to feel like your not smart or to be proud of yourself and your accomplishments. Jump out of the box and realize your worth. For all our sakes, know that your better than $32/hr...

Don't give up the nights, weekends, holidays, birthdays, births, first steps and all the other stuff that you miss doing this for food stamp wages and a shiny jet.

This is the problem with many guys. In terms of business characteristics, automobile manufacturing is so far removed from our industry it's not even funny.

And, there's a going rate of compensation at the Majors. It's headed back toward approx $200/hr for Captains and $150/hr for FOs on medium narrow body a/c. And, that includes retirement and medical benefits.

If your Airline isn't compensating at that level, questions must be asked because that is the going rate. If your Airline is paying less, don't be naive believing it makes your job more secure than the other guys.


JJ

Talk to anyone at JetBlue who is currently on disability or has recently been on it and compare their stories to those from a major airline with a CBA.

The difference is staggering.

JetBlue purports to be a career destination, to tout values and to
pretend it's employees matter when in reality they provide the worst insurance of any major carrier. A retirement among the worst. A disability which is the worst.

Look, if you want to work here that's fine. More power to you. But what you must realize is JetBlue is not the company is appears to be. Every benefit, and I mean every one, has been cost neutral. The flight ops budget has not changed.
While we may receive a raise the change in health insurance and the upcoming losses in disability allowed for the afore mentioned changes.
A cost neutral benefit.

Read it, learn it, believe it. THIS MAN SPEAKS THE TRUTH!

You are 100% spot on, it seems great from the outside. This is also why we need a CBA.

Bingo.....the man or woman speaks the truth. All is not as it appears in the Bluethisphere.

As if those things really are that dramatic when we explain to others that your feeling are basically hurt. You unhappy dudes need serious therapy. We've all suffered through major failures in our careers. JetBlue is far from the crappy place you guys continually paint it to be. You wanna cherry-pick cafeteria style the "above average" in the industry and are aghast that company would push back for the obvious reasons. What you deserve is a letter of rec to pursue a carrier is in line with your demands. Your singular focus will shank us all. I'm not saying I don't want it! I'm saying you guys don't have a true leg to stand on until hiring is a problem industry wide. JetBlue does good enough in it's benefits and improvements, and is committed to improvements until then (with obvious and crappy setbacks, yes it happens). And for these reasons ALPA supporters will remain the minority. Deal with it. The next ALPA drive will fail. And that's if ALPA BOD allows another black eye to their organization. Quit crying on PCG, FSM & PCRB and look at the bigger picture. And don't forget to tell everyone that the company has essentially handcuffed themselves from unilateral changes - which of course will falter at times I know you will POINT THAT OUT. But how has a CBA worked everywhere else on that point? DEAL with the reality of JetBlue being what it is and just TRY to be content. God knows some guys can't be happy otherwise.

another of the "deal with it" crowd I see. Your not worth a darn? Deal with it. We only made 52 million and can't pay a respectable medical plan? Deal with it. Why do you feel that you're worth so little and continually take it in the shorts? By the way, how will you "deal with it" when AA or someone steps in and tells you to hit the road cause you didn't "deal with it" (it = cba) when you had a chance to?