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Originally Posted by Rake222
(Post 1242719)
As if those things really are that dramatic when we explain to others that your feeling are basically hurt. You unhappy dudes need serious therapy. We've all suffered through major failures in our careers. JetBlue is far from the crappy place you guys continually paint it to be. You wanna cherry-pick cafeteria style the "above average" in the industry and are aghast that company would push back for the obvious reasons. What you deserve is a letter of rec to pursue a carrier is in line with your demands. Your singular focus will shank us all. I'm not saying I don't want it! I'm saying you guys don't have a true leg to stand on until hiring is a problem industry wide. JetBlue does good enough in it's benefits and improvements, and is committed to improvements until then (with obvious and crappy setbacks, yes it happens). And for these reasons ALPA supporters will remain the minority. Deal with it. The next ALPA drive will fail. And that's if ALPA BOD allows another black eye to their organization. Quit crying on PCG, FSM & PCRB and look at the bigger picture. And don't forget to tell everyone that the company has essentially handcuffed themselves from unilateral changes - which of course will falter at times I know you will POINT THAT OUT. But how has a CBA worked everywhere else on that point? DEAL with the reality of JetBlue being what it is and just TRY to be content. God knows some guys can't be happy otherwise.
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Originally Posted by Rake222
(Post 1242719)
As if those things really are that dramatic when we explain to others that your feeling are basically hurt. You unhappy dudes need serious therapy. We've all suffered through major failures in our careers. JetBlue is far from the crappy place you guys continually paint it to be. You wanna cherry-pick cafeteria style the "above average" in the industry and are aghast that company would push back for the obvious reasons. What you deserve is a letter of rec to pursue a carrier is in line with your demands. Your singular focus will shank us all. I'm not saying I don't want it! I'm saying you guys don't have a true leg to stand on until hiring is a problem industry wide. JetBlue does good enough in it's benefits and improvements, and is committed to improvements until then (with obvious and crappy setbacks, yes it happens). And for these reasons ALPA supporters will remain the minority. Deal with it. The next ALPA drive will fail. And that's if ALPA BOD allows another black eye to their organization. Quit crying on PCG, FSM & PCRB and look at the bigger picture. And don't forget to tell everyone that the company has essentially handcuffed themselves from unilateral changes - which of course will falter at times I know you will POINT THAT OUT. But how has a CBA worked everywhere else on that point? DEAL with the reality of JetBlue being what it is and just TRY to be content. God knows some guys can't be happy otherwise.
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Originally Posted by txbusdriver
(Post 1243083)
Hmmmm. Let me guess. You've got a nice retirement and tricare. That's what I thought.
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Over the course of the next 3 years Jetblue is shifting 80% of the healthcare cost to the employee. No other airline does this. In fact, no other company does this. The CATCAB committee, made up of management selectees, is reducing the LTD benefit by 33% this year. No other airline is doing this.
Rake will state correctly we recently received a 3% increase to our 401K. What Rake doesn't understand is the increases in healthcare and disability will cost him more than 3%. Now, there are 4 possible rebuttals to the above facts: 1. If you don't like it leave; 2. Its better than MESA; 3. No rebuttal at all; 4. I'm on tri-care. Jetblue pilots have trouble with reality. Jetblue tells you we are the best and they provide you the best. The reality, based completely in fact, is we are at the bottom of almost every measurable category. These facts are not disputable. These facts do not even incorporate merger protection in our PEA's. What say you Rake? Does Jetblue truly do good enough? Is the bottom good enough for a company recording record profits? |
Originally Posted by benzoate
(Post 1243133)
1. If you don't like it leave |
The JetBlue pilot group is an interesting study. They have proven the value of a good marketing company. They actually think their benefits are standard despite what the facts clearly state.
I think the phrase is "JetBlue crazy". |
Originally Posted by Rake222
(Post 1242719)
As if those things really are that dramatic when we explain to others that your feeling are basically hurt. You unhappy dudes need serious therapy. We've all suffered through major failures in our careers. JetBlue is far from the crappy place you guys continually paint it to be. You wanna cherry-pick cafeteria style the "above average" in the industry and are aghast that company would push back for the obvious reasons. What you deserve is a letter of rec to pursue a carrier is in line with your demands. Your singular focus will shank us all. I'm not saying I don't want it! I'm saying you guys don't have a true leg to stand on until hiring is a problem industry wide. JetBlue does good enough in it's benefits and improvements, and is committed to improvements until then (with obvious and crappy setbacks, yes it happens). And for these reasons ALPA supporters will remain the minority. Deal with it. The next ALPA drive will fail. And that's if ALPA BOD allows another black eye to their organization. Quit crying on PCG, FSM & PCRB and look at the bigger picture. And don't forget to tell everyone that the company has essentially handcuffed themselves from unilateral changes - which of course will falter at times I know you will POINT THAT OUT. But how has a CBA worked everywhere else on that point? DEAL with the reality of JetBlue being what it is and just TRY to be content. God knows some guys can't be happy otherwise.
My previous post can be summed up with "Know your company history". And you come back with "accept your failure... this place is GREAT". IF (and that is a really big "if") you understood our history, you would know that the ELT endorsed each previous method. They WANTED a collaborative process. My heartburn is they preached "lets hold hands and do this together" right up to the point when they got the results. Then THEY quit the collaborative process and started making one sided decisions. It was THEIR process... and THEY QUIT! If you had a business partner that spent the last 6 years going back on agreements, breaking their "handshake" promises, and just outright LYING to you... would you give them another chance, or would you start to employ legally binding contracts when dealing with them? What do I want? I want this place to be the company that I got hired at. Not the penny pinching, employee hating, regional that the ELT has turned it into. |
Originally Posted by Rake222
(Post 1242719)
As if those things really are that dramatic when we explain to others that your feeling are basically hurt. You unhappy dudes need serious therapy. We've all suffered through major failures in our careers. JetBlue is far from the crappy place you guys continually paint it to be. You wanna cherry-pick cafeteria style the "above average" in the industry and are aghast that company would push back for the obvious reasons. What you deserve is a letter of rec to pursue a carrier is in line with your demands. Your singular focus will shank us all. I'm not saying I don't want it! I'm saying you guys don't have a true leg to stand on until hiring is a problem industry wide. JetBlue does good enough in it's benefits and improvements, and is committed to improvements until then (with obvious and crappy setbacks, yes it happens). And for these reasons ALPA supporters will remain the minority. Deal with it. The next ALPA drive will fail. And that's if ALPA BOD allows another black eye to their organization. Quit crying on PCG, FSM & PCRB and look at the bigger picture. And don't forget to tell everyone that the company has essentially handcuffed themselves from unilateral changes - which of course will falter at times I know you will POINT THAT OUT. But how has a CBA worked everywhere else on that point? DEAL with the reality of JetBlue being what it is and just TRY to be content. God knows some guys can't be happy otherwise.
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Originally Posted by benzoate
(Post 1243133)
Over the course of the next 3 years Jetblue is shifting 80% of the healthcare cost to the employee. No other airline does this. In fact, no other company does this. The CATCAB committee, made up of management selectees, is reducing the LTD benefit by 33% this year. No other airline is doing this.
Rake will state correctly we recently received a 3% increase to our 401K. What Rake doesn't understand is the increases in healthcare and disability will cost him more than 3%. Now, there are 4 possible rebuttals to the above facts: 1. If you don't like it leave; 2. Its better than MESA; 3. No rebuttal at all; 4. I'm on tri-care. Jetblue pilots have trouble with reality. Jetblue tells you we are the best and they provide you the best. The reality, based completely in fact, is we are at the bottom of almost every measurable category. These facts are not disputable. These facts do not even incorporate merger protection in our PEA's. What say you Rake? Does Jetblue truly do good enough? Is the bottom good enough for a company recording record profits? Where has JetBlue told anyone that they will "provide you the best"??? What is rumored to happen within 3 years, is just that, simply a rumor (or black helicopters in your eyes). What is rumored to happen never does, and what actually happens is always a total surprise. |
Originally Posted by HUD Cripple
(Post 1243215)
If you had a business partner that spent the last 6 years going back on agreements, breaking their "handshake" promises, and just outright LYING to you... would you give them another chance, or would you start to employ legally binding contracts when dealing with them? When are you apologists going to get up off of your knees? |
Originally Posted by Ernst Kessler
(Post 1243243)
Yes, you do have trouble with reality. Your reality is totally false. JetBlue's 190 pilots are the highest paid in the country.
Know your history! |
Re read the post. At the bottom of most categories, not all.
Again, at the bottom of almost all categories. Not all. Pay is the only category for which we are almost standard. That's reality |
Originally Posted by HUD Cripple
(Post 1243262)
Do you understand why the 190 pay is the highest in the country? Do you understand who set the 190 pay at regional levels? Do you understand that the other companies haven't completed a contract cycle yet in order to catch up to this one, single, metric?
Know your history! Even Delta's new TA 190 Payrates are still BELOW ours! Know YOUR history! https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39382899/Ju...12%20Rates.JPG |
Originally Posted by Ernst Kessler
(Post 1243290)
WRONG!!!!!
Even Delta's new TA 190 Payrates are still BELOW ours! Know YOUR history! Is the 190 rate the only real positive that you can point to in our overall compensation? Shall we start talking about the upcoming medical changes, the verbage of our LTD program, the failed attempt to honestly fix our retirement, the "exhaust your own resources to get to the $2M merger fund"... Don't succumb to tunnel vision on a single solitary pay rate. We are so far away from an overall "average" package that it is just sad. The real sad part is you can't even admit it! |
Originally Posted by Ernst Kessler
(Post 1243290)
WRONG!!!!!
Even Delta's new TA 190 Payrates are still BELOW ours! Know YOUR history! Dont fret though, DAL/UAL will be removed from our peer set soon enough, so we wont have to worry about pesky pay raises to keep pace with their Airbus rates. |
Originally Posted by Flyby1206
(Post 1243304)
DAL doesnt have any E190s, but they do have a bunch of A320s. Their pay is drastically higher than our A320 pay.
Dont fret though, DAL/UAL will be removed from our peer set soon enough, so we wont have to worry about pesky pay raises to keep pace with their Airbus rates. Maybe the new "Robust pay model" will be the envy of all equipment payrates. |
Originally Posted by Sennaha
(Post 1243308)
Maybe the new "Robust pay model" will be the envy of all equipment payrates.
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You are bragging about 190 pilots being the highest paid? How many 190's do we have? What percentage of the fleet total do they represent?
This is what you are suggesting makes us a destination carrier or somehow not a perennial bottom dweller? 190 Pay? Meanwhile we have the worst insurance, disability, merger protection in the industry. One of the worst retirements which is based on profit sharing and Board of Director approval and, again, no merger protection. But no, you brag about 190 pay. Are you serious? You represent the problem with our pilot group. You fail to see the forest through the trees. You refuse believe the truth and grasp at straws hoping JetBlue is the company you want it to be. It's not! Period. You have a fixed flight ops budget. If you want more pay you lose it in benefits. That's how it works at JetBlue. If you would take the time to get involved, speak to your PVC rep or the committees you would learn what is going on. The very fact you are touting an aircraft JetBlue has capped and is actively selling and differing as the only category in which we aren't the worst is staggering and indicates your myopic view. |
Originally Posted by benzoate
(Post 1243356)
You are bragging about 190 pilots being the highest paid? How many 190's do we have? What percentage of the fleet total do they represent?
Originally Posted by benzoate
(Post 1243356)
Meanwhile we have the worst insurance, disability, merger protection in the industry. One of the worst retirements which is based on profit sharing and Board of Director approval and, again, no merger protection.
Originally Posted by benzoate
(Post 1243356)
But no, you brag about 190 pay. Are you serious?
Originally Posted by benzoate
(Post 1243356)
You represent the problem with our pilot group. You fail to see the forest through the trees. You refuse believe the truth and grasp at straws hoping JetBlue is the company you want it to be.
Originally Posted by benzoate
(Post 1243356)
If you would take the time to get involved, speak to your PVC rep or the committees you would learn what is going on.
Stay Informed and Fly Safe |
Want cheese with that wine? Really?
Facts are facts. Worst benefits. Period No merger protection. Period Facts, just facts. Your head in the sand does not constitue involved, just ignorant and naive. |
Originally Posted by Ernst Kessler
(Post 1243376)
Wah, wah, wah. Want any cheese with that whine? What airline has protection? NONE. Ask any lawyer about the size of the contract relative to the amount of loopholes. The more words, the more loopholes. The only ironclad contract in the entire business is the CEO's. Every other contract is smoke in mirrors, designed by lawyers, to have an escape route from any obligation. Haven't you seen all the rest of the airlines walk all over the pilot groups over the past 10 years??? I agree that all contracts have loopholes, but at least with a CBA you have the opportunity to file a greivance over the dispute. We have no way to even attempt to fight something the company tells us. Look at the coming Pay Review process changes. Its going to be a ram job and we have no way to fight it. |
Originally Posted by Ernst Kessler
(Post 1243376)
Roughly 1/3 of JetBlue's fleet is Embraer 190's (specifically 52 190's and 123 320's)
Wah, wah, wah. Want any cheese with that whine? What airline has protection? NONE. Ask any lawyer about the size of the contract relative to the amount of loopholes. The more words, the more loopholes. The only ironclad contract in the entire business is the CEO's. Every other contract is smoke in mirrors, designed by lawyers, to have an escape route from any obligation. Haven't you seen all the rest of the airlines walk all over the pilot groups over the past 10 years??? |
you are the best, we love how hard you work, you deserve the best, we are trying, we need time to fix things, are we perfect, no but..... Sound familiar?
Reality at jb - you are the best but you will not be compensated as such. It doesn't cost a dime to tell someone they are the best. Its actions that matter not words. If someone is the best and you truly believe that then you will do whatever it takes to compensate them appropriately. You can talk for years and years but until you show employees through pay, medical, retirement, disability and vacation then its just that, words. Think of all the motivational emails you receive, they don't cost a dime but they sure paint a story about how great you are. How much is that "you are great plaque" going to pay you at retirement? Sorry, but time to show us the money. Hate to put it so harshly but guys are tired of the games. Why are they going to change anything in regards pay and benefits when the stall tactics have worked for years? Nothing will change unless the work group finally puts a stop to this nonsense. Sadly, you will still have x% of people that will still say things like"its still better than XX airline that I worked for," and my favorite "if people don't like it they should just quit." I never thought that a fair medical and compensation plan was sticking it to the company? |
Wah, wah, wah. Want any cheese with that whine? What airline has protection? NONE. Ask any lawyer about the size of the contract relative to the amount of loopholes. The more words, the more loopholes. The only ironclad contract in the entire business is the CEO's. Every other contract is smoke in mirrors, designed by lawyers, to have an escape route from any obligation. Haven't you seen all the rest of the airlines walk all over the pilot groups over the past 10 years???
Every non-bankruptcy airline has been able to negotiate an SLI provided they had a CBA and a merger of operations clause. We have neither. Again, I and others on this board deal solely in facts. You, rhetoric. Your company propaganda has done little to progress our careers and ensure our future. |
Originally Posted by benzoate
(Post 1243415)
Every non-bankruptcy airline has been able to negotiate an SLI provided they had a CBA and a merger of operations clause.
We have neither. Yea.....keep on preaching brother! |
Originally Posted by Ernst Kessler
(Post 1243432)
Oh, right! Just like AirTran (ALPA & Non Bankrupt) essentially received a staple job from SWA.
Yea.....keep on preaching brother! |
Originally Posted by Ernst Kessler
(Post 1243432)
Oh, right! Just like AirTran (ALPA & Non Bankrupt) received essentially a staple job from SWA.
Yea.....keep on preaching brother! The AT/SWA negotiations began under the in-house AT union. Their CBA at the time did not contain a merger of operations clause. Even though ALPA came in later and one was negotiated the in-house contract was used. ALPA and the AT MEC did the best they could. Without the merger of operations clause SWA was able to give them a take it or leave it offer. You, as a Jetblue pilot do not even have that opportunity. Don't cloud facts and reality with your false hopes. |
In flight ops latest email SS writes we are protected with section 15.
The PVC contracted 4 separate legal firms which all agreed section 15 WOULD NOT protect us in the even of a merger. |
Originally Posted by benzoate
(Post 1243622)
In flight ops latest email SS writes we are protected with section 15.
The PVC contracted 4 separate legal firms which all agreed section 15 WOULD NOT protect us in the even of a merger. Sounds like pea's would have to be fought on an individual basis at which point he said "do you have the financial means to fight that battle? Probably not." Once again, intent is there but the pea doesn't hold water in a real fight. Also, he said they can allow you to hit the 5 year point agreed upon in your pea and just let your term expire and say goodbye. It would be easy and you would have zero recourse. |
Herk you are suggesting they would keep us on. Based on APA's past they will simply let you go.
During the ALPA campaign ALPA legal suggested there were between 3 and 10+ different PEA's floating around. The issue the our lawyers will face is explaining how we are all the same when our PEA's are all different. Management, again, has outsmarted the pilot group by "giving" you the option to not sign. |
Sorry to go back to page two or three, but getting a union isn't a guaranteed way to better health care. One of my Spirit contacts tells me that their ALPA negotiators allowed a huge increase in health bennies. That's even after they walked off the job.
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Originally Posted by Orbit
(Post 1243928)
Sorry to go back to page two or three, but getting a union isn't a guaranteed way to better health care. One of my Spirit contacts tells me that their ALPA negotiators allowed a huge increase in health bennies. That's even after they walked off the job.
ALPA did not allow a huge increase in health bennies. Spirits MEC agreed to whatever their health benefits are. Spirit pilots negotiating with ALPA's assistance. Every scenario is a give and take. Increases are to be expected but unlike the Jetblue pilots scenarios Spirit is not transferring 80% of the cost to the pilots. Even if Spirit did receive an increase their insurance is still far superior to Jetblues and it was NEGOTIATED by Spirit pilots. |
Spirit Airlines makes the best case possible for being unionized. The abuse to the pilot profession is the worst I have ever seen in my career. The biggest complaint I see here is the fact that they called off the strike without pilot group ratification and told the pilots that our negotiators would quit if they didnt vote yes for the contract. And....our reps. assured everyone that this place would never go public so no need for profit sharing. Go figure.
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Originally Posted by Ernst Kessler
(Post 1243243)
Yes, you do have trouble with reality. Your reality is totally false. JetBlue's 190 pilots are the highest paid in the country. The 320 pilots are industry average. To say that we are at the bottom of all categories is so false, it's laughable! Look at the TOTAL package before you start comparing. Some of our perks are better, some are worse than others, for the most part, we are in the middle.
Where has JetBlue told anyone that they will "provide you the best"??? What is rumored to happen within 3 years, is just that, simply a rumor (or black helicopters in your eyes). What is rumored to happen never does, and what actually happens is always a total surprise. This is like bragging about taking your sister to the prom. Are you kidding me? Highest paid E190 drivers. Compared to who? UsAir? |
Originally Posted by Ernst Kessler
(Post 1243376)
Wah, wah, wah. Want any cheese with that whine? What airline has protection? NONE. Ask any lawyer about the size of the contract relative to the amount of loopholes. The more words, the more loopholes. The only ironclad contract in the entire business is the CEO's. Every other contract is smoke in mirrors, designed by lawyers, to have an escape route from any obligation. Haven't you seen all the rest of the airlines walk all over the pilot groups over the past 10 years???
Originally Posted by Ernst Kessler
(Post 1243376)
Not bragging, rather correcting your ignorance. You stated we were the lowest paid, and your wrong.
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Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 1243986)
Delta management LOST an arbitrated case over harassing Delta pilots about using sick time. The CONTRACT and the UNION are what allowed this case to even exist. Delta management recently had to give beneficial work rule changes(for the pilot group) due to violating our scope clause. Once again, it was the contract and union that forced this. Delta management recently again attempted to 'monitor sick leave usage' until the union threatened another arbitration case. They immediately backed off. Our contract lays out profit sharing. They didn't find away around that. It lays out the amount of sick time we are given. They didn't find a loophole around that. It lays out the amount we get paid. They didn't find a way around that. It lays out the work rules. They sometimes try to get around those, but when the UNION investigates the case and finds out they violated the contract they end up paying money for it. So you are wrong. There are indeed pilot groups that have protection, and they are unionized groups.
Your waving a gun with no bullets. It's not going to win the battle. There are only two airlines in the US that operate E190's. JB has nothing worth bragging about there. Sorry. +1. Unions (especially a strong one) are necessary "evils" in our industry whether you are pro union or not. It's just the way it has to be. You may not agree with your union shop or care to participate in it, but it sure comes in handy when the company decides to try and bend the rules or change the game. Oh, I forgot, unjustified termination? That benefit alone is worth the dues IMHO. |
Originally Posted by lake alice
(Post 1243917)
Herk you are suggesting they would keep us on. Based on APA's past they will simply let you go.
During the ALPA campaign ALPA legal suggested there were between 3 and 10+ different PEA's floating around. The issue the our lawyers will face is explaining how we are all the same when our PEA's are all different. Management, again, has outsmarted the pilot group by "giving" you the option to not sign. I thought about it and wondered at that point if there were any special details in certain guys contracts that others don't even know about? Makes you wonder doesn't it? I would hope our contracts are cut and pasted equally on pay and benefits but do you REALLY know for sure? |
Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 1243980)
This is like bragging about taking your sister to the prom. Are you kidding me? Highest paid E190 drivers. Compared to who? UsAir?
It's a 100-seat jet, like an F100, DC9-10 or -30, B717, or 737-200, except it carries more fuel and flies farther than any of those types. So when JetBlue's attrition finally exceeded management's tolerance to pay for it, the rates on that jet were magically brought up to that peer set. And USAir's crappy payrates are largely due to our original crappy rates, exacerbated by the East/West bloodbath. |
It's comical to read posts by JetBlue pilots who in an effort to feel better about themselves and their airline will point to a 190. An airplane the airline has made clear they will not take more deliveries of and are actively selling off.
That mentality is the epitome of whats wrong with JetBlue. It's doesn't matter if we are the highest paid 190 pilots when we won't even have jobs if we're bought by american. Again, JetBlue management is smarter than the 1193. 190 pay means nothing if you don't have a job. |
Originally Posted by benzoate
(Post 1244560)
It's comical to read posts by JetBlue pilots who in an effort to feel better about themselves and their airline will point to a 190. An airplane the airline has made clear they will not take more deliveries of and are actively selling off.
That mentality is the epitome of whats wrong with JetBlue. It's doesn't matter if we are the highest paid 190 pilots when we won't even have jobs if we're bought by american. Again, JetBlue management is smarter than the 1193. 190 pay means nothing if you don't have a job. |
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