Virgin America a hit, but losing money
08-06-2012 | 05:37 PM
#31
China Visa Applicant
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,963
Likes: 16
From: Midfield downwind
Unfortunately, it's 2012, and Congress cares about something completely different now. Any new rules would exist to protect the rights of the passenger, and do absolutely nothing to return pilots to the pay or schedules of the pre-'78. If anything, it would handcuff pilots to pitiful wages, likely restrict labor actions to more severe rules than the RLA, and permanently put a wet blanket on "improving the profession" which would require further Congressional action to undo.
A terrible, terrible idea.
08-09-2012 | 12:49 PM
#32
Banned
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,347
Likes: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by gloopy
Not friend of a friend, but directly from the (higher than a) VP in question. You can't possibly pretend you blew through half a billion dollars in a few years with just a few airplanes and have perpetually been down to your last 20 million or so every quarter while losing more than that almost every quarter anything other than "royal" intervention.
If you are as experienced (and old) as you say, then you are a relatively short timer and I do understand you running the numbers on things and realizing that VX is likely the final stop for you. For others they are playing the "I'll be in the top 500 of a mega major one day" but whatever. Its all part of the very same labor busting longevity shredding churn the industry is made of. The cycle will always continue. Start up a new airline, pay everyone first year everything on a drastically reduced pay and benefits package, get new airplanes leapfrogging in technology and ammenities, wash, rinse, file bankruptcy because now your costs are higher and here comes another start up and repeat. I get it, I just don't like it.
Don't h8 the playa though, its the game. Rich people will never, ever, get tired of playing with airplanes, and pilots will never not take the best deal they can get at any given time. Some cling to a fantasy that mass refusal to work by all pilots will make the labor corporate churn go away but that's the ultimate pipe dream. That will never happen nor should it even be a goal. Pure fantasy. But the many, many hundreds of aircraft on the order books for so called LCC's and present and future start ups while other airlines stagnate, shrink and fade away make this very much a zero sum game. If VX succeeds to the extent it strives to, the same amount of jobs will be lost at other carriers to provide lower paying and much more junior jobs there. That's just how it works.
I guess in that regard we're like these guys:
We're both trying to run the other out of a job, and to deny that is either a flat out lie or a hyper-idealized delusion. There is not room for all the present ULCC's, much less future ones, and the existing legacy airlines. Something has to give. "Just feeding my family" will be the ink the winners write the outcome of history in.
This is the best summary of our industry I've seen in awhile. When people ask me what I think of VX, JB, Spirit, ect., I never quite know how to answer, but from now on I'm just going to paste this on my phone, and show it to them. I don't hold any grudges against my fellow pilots for taking these jobs, but I do resent the system that creates them, and keeps our compensation and work rules so poor. I have a friend who is younger and works for JB. He makes more than I do (I work for a legacy carrier- it doesn't matter which). It's hard for him to understand that one of the reasons my pay is so low, is because of the success of his company- which got successful for the reasons stated above by gloopy. I don't hold it against him, and I don't want to see his pay go down, but some day (possibly soon), he will be in my shoes watching some other ULCC start-up undercutting his company and putting downward pressure on his pay. Hopefully he'll be able to understand better then and maybe work towards a real solution. Going by history (and all the ridiculous arguments on this forum), I don't think the chances are too good.
Originally Posted by gloopy
Not friend of a friend, but directly from the (higher than a) VP in question. You can't possibly pretend you blew through half a billion dollars in a few years with just a few airplanes and have perpetually been down to your last 20 million or so every quarter while losing more than that almost every quarter anything other than "royal" intervention.
If you are as experienced (and old) as you say, then you are a relatively short timer and I do understand you running the numbers on things and realizing that VX is likely the final stop for you. For others they are playing the "I'll be in the top 500 of a mega major one day" but whatever. Its all part of the very same labor busting longevity shredding churn the industry is made of. The cycle will always continue. Start up a new airline, pay everyone first year everything on a drastically reduced pay and benefits package, get new airplanes leapfrogging in technology and ammenities, wash, rinse, file bankruptcy because now your costs are higher and here comes another start up and repeat. I get it, I just don't like it.
Don't h8 the playa though, its the game. Rich people will never, ever, get tired of playing with airplanes, and pilots will never not take the best deal they can get at any given time. Some cling to a fantasy that mass refusal to work by all pilots will make the labor corporate churn go away but that's the ultimate pipe dream. That will never happen nor should it even be a goal. Pure fantasy. But the many, many hundreds of aircraft on the order books for so called LCC's and present and future start ups while other airlines stagnate, shrink and fade away make this very much a zero sum game. If VX succeeds to the extent it strives to, the same amount of jobs will be lost at other carriers to provide lower paying and much more junior jobs there. That's just how it works.
I guess in that regard we're like these guys:
We're both trying to run the other out of a job, and to deny that is either a flat out lie or a hyper-idealized delusion. There is not room for all the present ULCC's, much less future ones, and the existing legacy airlines. Something has to give. "Just feeding my family" will be the ink the winners write the outcome of history in.
This is the best summary of our industry I've seen in awhile. When people ask me what I think of VX, JB, Spirit, ect., I never quite know how to answer, but from now on I'm just going to paste this on my phone, and show it to them. I don't hold any grudges against my fellow pilots for taking these jobs, but I do resent the system that creates them, and keeps our compensation and work rules so poor. I have a friend who is younger and works for JB. He makes more than I do (I work for a legacy carrier- it doesn't matter which). It's hard for him to understand that one of the reasons my pay is so low, is because of the success of his company- which got successful for the reasons stated above by gloopy. I don't hold it against him, and I don't want to see his pay go down, but some day (possibly soon), he will be in my shoes watching some other ULCC start-up undercutting his company and putting downward pressure on his pay. Hopefully he'll be able to understand better then and maybe work towards a real solution. Going by history (and all the ridiculous arguments on this forum), I don't think the chances are too good.
08-09-2012 | 03:38 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,823
Likes: 166
From: window seat
The ONLY solution to this is one national seniority list. Of course, the pilots we so highly speak of will never go for it. You want to end that cycle? Create one seniority list, where pilots take their experience with them to an airline. It'll be a tought pill to swallow for this generation of pilots, but believe me the next upcoming generation will have it far better if we were to do so. The same management you blame also realizes that pilots are inherently self-serving with too much tied to their seniority at an airline.
But, no matter what, you will never, ever, see an industry where you can camp out in the right seat of an RJ for 20 years with one company then slide on over to the left seat of a 777 for another airline. It simply will never work like that, nor should it. National hiring list for new hires, maybe. NSL? No way. Look at USAir. They should have been allowed to liquidate, which would have made the rest of the industry much stronger and avoided most or all other furloughs. But to "protect labor" they were bailed out again and again and today have captains makins less than common industry FO rates and a baseline that is weaker for us all.
A NSL will never happen but there are other ways to mitigate the churn. Labor can only do so much. The rest has to come from the regulators and even the companies. We need healthy airlines to crush the never ending barrage of start ups and foreigh dual subsidized EGO airlines.
08-09-2012 | 05:19 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 433
Likes: 0
Never going to happen, nor should it. There are other ways to take the sting out of starting over and enable pilots to vote no even if it means shutting the doors. Ending the "first year pay" B scale (and in most cases first through at least second to as high as fifth year B scales).
But, no matter what, you will never, ever, see an industry where you can camp out in the right seat of an RJ for 20 years with one company then slide on over to the left seat of a 777 for another airline. It simply will never work like that, nor should it. National hiring list for new hires, maybe. NSL? No way. Look at USAir. They should have been allowed to liquidate, which would have made the rest of the industry much stronger and avoided most or all other furloughs. But to "protect labor" they were bailed out again and again and today have captains makins less than common industry FO rates and a baseline that is weaker for us all.
A NSL will never happen but there are other ways to mitigate the churn. Labor can only do so much. The rest has to come from the regulators and even the companies. We need healthy airlines to crush the never ending barrage of start ups and foreigh dual subsidized EGO airlines.
But, no matter what, you will never, ever, see an industry where you can camp out in the right seat of an RJ for 20 years with one company then slide on over to the left seat of a 777 for another airline. It simply will never work like that, nor should it. National hiring list for new hires, maybe. NSL? No way. Look at USAir. They should have been allowed to liquidate, which would have made the rest of the industry much stronger and avoided most or all other furloughs. But to "protect labor" they were bailed out again and again and today have captains makins less than common industry FO rates and a baseline that is weaker for us all.
A NSL will never happen but there are other ways to mitigate the churn. Labor can only do so much. The rest has to come from the regulators and even the companies. We need healthy airlines to crush the never ending barrage of start ups and foreigh dual subsidized EGO airlines.
08-11-2012 | 09:55 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
From: A320 CA
Well, a snarky question deserves an appropriate response.
LCCs have helped pilots who didn't want to fly at a regional for substandard pay, benefits and quality of life (entities created by the majors and fostered by ALPAs refusal to insist that regional pilots be covered by mainline contracts) neither did they wish to languish at the bottom of a massive seniority list with the prospects of furlough, reserve duty, and unpopular base assignments for years.
LCCs have offered an opportunity for pilots to take a chance on a startup with the risk that entails exactly as Southwest, FedEx, and other pilots did a generation ago.
As another post stated, my airline hasn't outsourced flying, created an alter ego, or used multiple feeders to whipsaw pilot groups.
Lastly, two years ago the pilots at my LCC struck successfully on our behalf and yours to make this profession better. My ALPA pin has a battle star. Where's yours?
Finally, what have you, or your airline done to improve this profession?
Crickets.
LCCs have helped pilots who didn't want to fly at a regional for substandard pay, benefits and quality of life (entities created by the majors and fostered by ALPAs refusal to insist that regional pilots be covered by mainline contracts) neither did they wish to languish at the bottom of a massive seniority list with the prospects of furlough, reserve duty, and unpopular base assignments for years.
LCCs have offered an opportunity for pilots to take a chance on a startup with the risk that entails exactly as Southwest, FedEx, and other pilots did a generation ago.
As another post stated, my airline hasn't outsourced flying, created an alter ego, or used multiple feeders to whipsaw pilot groups.
Lastly, two years ago the pilots at my LCC struck successfully on our behalf and yours to make this profession better. My ALPA pin has a battle star. Where's yours?
Finally, what have you, or your airline done to improve this profession?
Crickets.
Last edited by Merlyn; 08-11-2012 at 10:39 AM.
08-11-2012 | 12:40 PM
#38
Banned
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,347
Likes: 329
Well, a snarky question deserves an appropriate response.
LCCs have helped pilots who didn't want to fly at a regional for substandard pay, benefits and quality of life (entities created by the majors and fostered by ALPAs refusal to insist that regional pilots be covered by mainline contracts) neither did they wish to languish at the bottom of a massive seniority list with the prospects of furlough, reserve duty, and unpopular base assignments for years.
LCCs have offered an opportunity for pilots to take a chance on a startup with the risk that entails exactly as Southwest, FedEx, and other pilots did a generation ago.
As another post stated, my airline hasn't outsourced flying, created an alter ego, or used multiple feeders to whipsaw pilot groups.
Lastly, two years ago the pilots at my LCC struck successfully on our behalf and yours to make this profession better. My ALPA pin has a battle star. Where's yours?
Finally, what have you, or your airline done to improve this profession?
Crickets.
LCCs have helped pilots who didn't want to fly at a regional for substandard pay, benefits and quality of life (entities created by the majors and fostered by ALPAs refusal to insist that regional pilots be covered by mainline contracts) neither did they wish to languish at the bottom of a massive seniority list with the prospects of furlough, reserve duty, and unpopular base assignments for years.
LCCs have offered an opportunity for pilots to take a chance on a startup with the risk that entails exactly as Southwest, FedEx, and other pilots did a generation ago.
As another post stated, my airline hasn't outsourced flying, created an alter ego, or used multiple feeders to whipsaw pilot groups.
Lastly, two years ago the pilots at my LCC struck successfully on our behalf and yours to make this profession better. My ALPA pin has a battle star. Where's yours?
Finally, what have you, or your airline done to improve this profession?
Crickets.
And your CA salaries from years 1-7 are pathetic. And didn't you lose opentime pickup from 200% back down to 100%?Not that we fare much better, hourly rates are comparable, but you have better work (soft money) rules.
08-11-2012 | 01:23 PM
#39
Moderator
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,088
Likes: 0
From: B757/767
Well, a snarky question deserves an appropriate response.
LCCs have helped pilots who didn't want to fly at a regional for substandard pay, benefits and quality of life (entities created by the majors and fostered by ALPAs refusal to insist that regional pilots be covered by mainline contracts) neither did they wish to languish at the bottom of a massive seniority list with the prospects of furlough, reserve duty, and unpopular base assignments for years.
LCCs have offered an opportunity for pilots to take a chance on a startup with the risk that entails exactly as Southwest, FedEx, and other pilots did a generation ago.
As another post stated, my airline hasn't outsourced flying, created an alter ego, or used multiple feeders to whipsaw pilot groups.
Lastly, two years ago the pilots at my LCC struck successfully on our behalf and yours to make this profession better. My ALPA pin has a battle star. Where's yours?
Finally, what have you, or your airline done to improve this profession?
Crickets.
LCCs have helped pilots who didn't want to fly at a regional for substandard pay, benefits and quality of life (entities created by the majors and fostered by ALPAs refusal to insist that regional pilots be covered by mainline contracts) neither did they wish to languish at the bottom of a massive seniority list with the prospects of furlough, reserve duty, and unpopular base assignments for years.
LCCs have offered an opportunity for pilots to take a chance on a startup with the risk that entails exactly as Southwest, FedEx, and other pilots did a generation ago.
As another post stated, my airline hasn't outsourced flying, created an alter ego, or used multiple feeders to whipsaw pilot groups.
Lastly, two years ago the pilots at my LCC struck successfully on our behalf and yours to make this profession better. My ALPA pin has a battle star. Where's yours?
Finally, what have you, or your airline done to improve this profession?
Crickets.
08-15-2012 | 06:25 PM
#40
New Hire
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: B 737 CA
I'm not against entrepreneurship, nor do I favor reregultion (although we're pretty well "regulated" as it is).
The problem is how the crony (non) capitalist system is set up. The government is supposed to vett all start ups for viability, yet the government blindly rubber stamps all of them while over 95% of them fail. But they are rubber stamped so the politicos can provide low fares to the masses, labor and industry stability be dammed.
The DOT should never rubber stamp all these idiotic experiments.
We need to end those subsidies and allow failing companies to fail. The amount of churn caused by the free market would be significantly less than the churn created by redundant layers of failed policy and misguided politics.
The problem is how the crony (non) capitalist system is set up. The government is supposed to vett all start ups for viability, yet the government blindly rubber stamps all of them while over 95% of them fail. But they are rubber stamped so the politicos can provide low fares to the masses, labor and industry stability be dammed.
The DOT should never rubber stamp all these idiotic experiments.
We need to end those subsidies and allow failing companies to fail. The amount of churn caused by the free market would be significantly less than the churn created by redundant layers of failed policy and misguided politics.
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