Timbo

The rest of those listed were elected at other councils. I think the point he was trying to make is, there has been turnover inside the MEC, through LEC elections.

What I still have not heard a reason for is; why was O'Malley not reelected in the first place? And if the MEC elected KR to replace TO, why, 9 months later, did they recall him? And are they going to try to reinsert TO?

To the line pilot, it makes no sense, but to the MEC, we are mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed cow poop.

Too bad we don't even have a DALPA forum to discuss it and maybe get some answers.

You DALPA guys are fkng brilliant, just brilliant. You've added a number of cards to DPA just by pulling down the forum. Who was the tool responsible for that?

Step up and admit you fkd up, and then get the forum back up and running.

hitimefurl

Oh you "checked with your reps". Not a long distance call, I trust?

It's actually common knowledge that he lives in SAN.

Anyway, apparently you asked Bill if he was lying and you accepted his answer at face value. I spent 10 minutes on Google and other search engines. Are we expected to believe he owns that $800K mansion in the hills by SAN and his wife lives there, but he stays at that little $10K bungalow in MI?

Besides which, prior to being bumped out of MSP320A, he never claimed to live anywhere but CA.

(Imagine being displaced from A320 to 7ER)

When he does lounge visits in DTW does he get a hotel?
When he commutes to work in NYC is he flying from SAN or DTW?
When he goes to MEC meetings is he originating in SAN or DTW?

When he files expense reports for the union, are they predicated on a SAN residence or DTW?

If all that stuff doesn't match the story, doesn't he have something to explain?

Your description of a bypass being in place for a long time doesn't make sense either.

If you get a bypass because you decide to commute to ATL for a while (or are displaced) and you eventually come back to DTW, then the bypass is over. Once your base and your council "sync up" you are not bypassing. A couple years later, if you decided to commute to MSP, then you have to ask for a new bypass. Each time you ask for a bypass, you are attesting to the fact that you know the rules and you qualify for bypass under those rules. As a former ALPA Exec VP and a guy who has been a rep a couple times before, I think BB should know the rules. If he requested a bypass and nobody verified his situation, he's the one at fault, not the MEC.

And I really don't expect the union to get into hiring a private investigator every time someone asks for a bypass. The system is designed to assume we are honest men. Unfortunately, that leaves us open to exploitation by the less honest amongst us.

Sink r8

I agree completely on the forum, Timbo.

As far as the MEC Chairman goes, this better not be about getting TO back. They need someone that they can appoint with confidence. With all that being said, I had a good conversation with a rep about that. Something really backwards is getting inserted in the process. The reps work for the pilots, and the Chairman works for the reps.

What we have going on now is completely backwards. Some reps don't answer to the pilots, but also don't handle their own employee.

If the MEC wants to fire the Chairman, they fire the Chairman. They absolutely need to be able to tell us why/how, because they work for us. But if they don't like the way he's working, they should fire him.

I lost my faith in our own CA rep over this recall, and started supporting the challenger (an uphill battle to say the least). I had doubts and reservations before, but he lost his mind on this one. He's telling us that it's the will of the group, but he can't document it. How on earth was it the will of the council pilots to keep or fire a guy for his performance at the horseshoe. Did the reps give us points to consider? No. The reality is that they had a duty to work these things out behind closed doors. We know they were happening now. You can read it in the reports that aren't being withheld or otherwise manipulated.

I want my rep to be accountable to me, and I want the Chairman to be accountable to the rep, and do his job. You didn't have to be all that astute to figure that something was wrong at the top. Before Kingsley became a martyr, he was the symbol of an ineffective MEC. The rare communications we received from him actually made one recall with melancholy the quaint days where we got Black Swan nonsense from Moak. Because that was nonsense, but somehow not completely alienating and divisive nonsense.

bigbusdriver

I'm not discrediting Bill any less than the whole MEC. They do have a duty of due diligence. They should watch over this stuff. But I imagine a lot of people have been displaced over the years. The pre-bankruptcy exodus, the merger, etc. Probably thousands of guys & gals moving all around.

Sadly, most probably don't care enough about being involved in their union to request a bypass. In the cases where people do request bypass, the inclination is probably towards "Oh thank goodness, someone cares enough and they want to be able to participate at local meetings or whatever." Their first inclination isn't suspicion.

But when someone is committing fraud, that's corruption and I don't like it. I don't support throwing out the whole union when there is fraud or corruption. I support fixing it.

So Clamp, if I am right and there is fraud/corruption, you don't support fixing it? Is that what you're saying?

It seems anyone who questions the Detroit Pilots Association is automatically labeled by you as a DALPA plant. I view this as a sophomoric attempt to obfuscate the issue. Why don't you debate the facts?

zoomiezombie

I respectfully differ.

I wish there was just 1 place that was a clearinghouse for all debate and information.

When they closed DALPA forum I thought it was going to make it easier because all those guys would consolidate their input to this forum.

Instead one guy started his own, so I still have to go to 3 places.

Although, that new one sucks. It's the same 20-30 guys that all agree with each other fighting with JP4. The same arguments they've had since the merger.
~yawn~

b73nav8r

ALPA is like the Titanic. You can't change it's direction fast enough by being on the boat and the Captain won't listen. The only choice is to get off and find a different ride. Slice it anyway you want it, use whatever rhetoric you want but ALPA shouldn't be representing two competing pilot groups. DPA is only for Delta pilots and that's the way it SHOULD be. GO DPA!!!!!

hitimefurl

Wow, really?
Do you wear blazers with shoulderpads and have your hair feathered too?
DPA is long gone dude.
Lose the acid washed jeans too, BTW

TheManager

The Veterans Day bump: day four of slowplays deflections

Let me refresh your recollection slowplay. You infer that Buzz's rebuttal to The Schnitzler Letter is factual where as Ryan's account is "his theory that Buzz disproves." You go on to say in a different post to, "Compare and contrast Ryan's letter with Buzz's. One has facts and the actual text that disproves it."

Again, I ask you to debate with facts and not defections.

Provided below is the full text of The Schnitzler Letter. Please go on record as to which parts are not factual and are theory as you claim.

My guess is that you will continue to evade going on record here as to identifying which sections of The Schnitzler Letter are not factual. You will continue to argue with deflections, spins and deceit as will your reptilian retinue of Moak acolytes and apologists.

You also stated that you are "not running for anything" in regards to the vacant MEC Chair.

Of course you are not running for it. You are just waiting to be installed. Getting rid of F/O Rep Ryan Scnitzler is part of the path that that insures this. You and your enablers need the full support of the 108 to have a chance to pull this off.

Regardless, this is simple. Since you don't want to be be known or on record as calling Ryan Schnitzler a liar, just show us where he and the letter are not factual.

Until then, it is completely factual and Buzz's rebuttal is nothing but fabricated cover.




The Fork in the Road

Fellow Pilots of Council 108,

I am writing you today to discuss the very difficult place we find ourselves. We have arrived at a fork in the road and must choose one of two paths in which to go down. It would be nice if we could split the difference, but it appears that option has been taken from us.

Yesterday, I received a letter that was sent out to only a select number of pilots in Council 108. Tim O’Malley, Jerry Timmerman, Don Wykoff, and Rich Harwood signed the letter. In a writing style similar to that of Buzz Hazzard, it tries to paint the picture that I am a radical, one who only votes “No,” and one who prefers a strategy of “torches and pitchforks.” It suggests that I want to abandon constructive engagement in favor of taking a hard line. I went back and reread my perspectives to the council. I am at a loss for how anyone could come to these conclusions unless they had an underhanded motive to remove me as your representative for their political gain.

The letter paints a very rosy picture of the recall. It tries to show any reasonable MEC member as having no other option than to vote for the recall of Kingsley Roberts, despite the fact that the initial vote was virtually tied at 10-9. They also fail to paint the behind the scenes activity that occurred which was akin to a conspiracy. The letter also fails to recognize the fact that when Tim O’Malley left office, the DPA had over 5,000 members, a failure of O’Malley’s leadership, not Roberts’.

Recognize that much of what I am about to communicate is my opinion based on my observations being a member of the MEC. The recall efforts began the day Kingsley Roberts won the election for MEC Chairman. The O’Malley supporters gathered together to make sure Robert Hazzard (Buzz) got elected in Council 108. They did not fight me as they thought I was one of them since I performed committee work and got very favorable reviews from the Committee Chairman I worked under. In the first hour of the first meeting of this new MEC, Buzz and Randy Worrall of council 81 called for an Executive Session. While I can’t discuss the content of that session, it was an attempt to build the case to recall King but ultimately failed. There was much discussion in the hospitality suite at the Seattle meeting about recalling King, but it failed to launch as well.

In September Buzz invited my wife, our son, and me over to his home to watch a baseball game. The other invitees were Tim O’Malley, Brenier Fries, Rich Harwood, Don Wykoff and their wives. Tim and Bren were unable to attend, but Rich and Don were there. I was suspicious going into this social event as all of these men had tried to sway my opinion and lean on me in the past. My suspicions were**confirmed as I quickly realized this social evening was a way for them to feel me out for what they had in mind; recalling Kingsley.

The first week in October, Buzz and his team started the process of recalling King. My own independent research of the matter showed me quite clearly that this was a well-organized and choreographed attack on Kingsley Roberts. It was clear that the team was speaking from the same talking points as they were saying the exact same things, word for word. Buzz hosted a conference call, referred to by some as clandestine, made up of those who had committed to the recall and those he was trying to get on board. I was the latter. It was quite an eye opening look at how this group works, or perhaps schemes, to achieve their goals. Despite this, I tried to work with other MEC members and King to stop the recall and get back to work. This effort failed. Once the letters went in calling for the recalls, Buzz’s co-conspirators started calling and emailing me. They yelled, threw insults, and Jerry Timmerman, Buzz’s Vice-Chairman on the Communications Committee, threatened me with recall two days before the recall meeting.

When the recall meeting started, I asked a few simple questions that seemed to be non-threatening. My point was to establish a baseline of whether we were going to get the truth or lies. Unfortunately, I was hearing statements I knew to be lies. The baseline was set for what would be a two day kangaroo court, in which nobody swore an oath to tell the truth. The co-conspirators in the MEC asked many a slanted question of the witnesses. Randy Worrell, Armando Gomez, Boyd Kelly, Brian Shinnick, and Buzz Hazzard participated in questioning of many while repeatedly denying King the chance to tell his side of the story or defend his actions. At the end of the 11 hours, I gave him that chance but by then the damage was done.

Earlier I mentioned the fork in the road. Our entire pilot group is facing this fork. We need to make the decision whether we are going to continue going down the path of electing a group that uses Chicago- style political tactics while ignoring a very large segment of the pilot group, or if we are going to get back to the original design of bottom up and membership-led representation. We also need reps who want to listen to our pilot group. Buzz has told me many times that he thinks lounge visits are a waste of time and even fought Kingsley Roberts when he introduced the program. I cherish the lounge visits and the opportunity to talk one on one and listen to your concerns. Perhaps Buzz knows better.

Finally, the letter forwarded to me yesterday suggested writing in John Wolf. I like John and thank him for stepping up to the plate. Two days prior to our October LEC meeting, Tony Gerst expressed he was willing to serve, but didn’t really want to. Buzz reached out to John and asked him if he would run for that position. He said yes. I nominated him along with many others. I have no hard feelings toward John for the write in suggestion yesterday. I think that he is being used as a pawn to snuff out the independent thought that I offer. They will push him to follow orders and vote as they say or they will find a way to push him out as they are trying with me. I see this as a dastardly act toward John.

In summary, the choice is yours. Do you want independent reps that vote according to your direction as members, or do you want reps that will do what the old regime wants and bully others to fall in line? I seek independent thought. I voted for Buzz in the last election. After seeing how he operates, I no longer support him as our representative. Silas Hart is not running in this election, but when asked has said that he is willing to serve if our council elects him via write in. I have written Silas in and fully endorse him for Captain Rep. His ALPA number is 0614461.

Thanks for your attention and I ask for your vote. A vote for Ryan Schnitzler is a vote for independence, strength, and loyalty to the membership, not a regime. I have copied yesterday’s letter for your own analysis.

Ryan

Bucking Bar

More importantly, the Reps who won and who we should now support in unity are Capt. Buzz Hazard, F.O Ryan Schnitzler and Secretary Treasurer John Wolf.

Congratulations gentlemen and thank you for your service.

slowplay

Maybe you should read Ryan's letter before calling me out. Beginning in the 4th paragraph of Ryan's own letter he states:

Recognize that much of what I am about to communicate is my opinion.

That opinion carried through most of the rest of his letter.

Now where I'm from opinions aren't considered facts. Facts are what Buzz put in his letter - you know, the source information that belies the theories that Ryan espoused. The text that shows that leading up to the decision to recall KR that Buzz was still trying to get the MEC Chairman to fix the problem and avoid a recall meeting.

Ryan's opinion doesn't square with the facts.

That's not deflection.

In any case, there wasn't a fork in the road. Ryan was wrong again. The CVG pilots chose a middle path, reelecting both he and Buzz Hazzard to another term.

There's an NEC meeting this week. I hope the 19 folks we all elected get their act together. They've got a lot to work through, with "cross-council" endorsements, political censorship of elected representatives, and according to this board whether or not one even qualifies for his representative position. Would be fun to be a fly on the wall.

Oh, I almost forgot. Have you paid your bet? It's month 16 of the manager watch...