Middle East carrier subsidies
03-28-2015 | 04:18 PM
#291
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,488
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From: tri current
Boeing unions are killing themselves as witnessed by BA moving a plans to South Carolina. More and more of that happening, and they'll be on the endangered list. But as to it "helping" unionized workers, while it might be helping the 150,000 or so Boeing workers, it is endangering the 250,000 or so airline workers in the same shot. Those numbers are not exact, but I'll betcha they are pretty close. But it's like everything in DC, once it is set in stone, it never changes. So hopefully we can prove the me airlines are cheating and get them thrown out.
Actually, the only groups that are endangering U.S. airline workers are their own unions and the managers of those airlines who do not see that the 4-5 billion people outside of the USA and Western Europe need airline service. If they would think creatively and be a little more bold, instead of scared, then they may actually devise plans and strategies that could capture some of the revenue available from the 4-5 billion people they are not currently serving. You know, the ones that EK, EY, and QR among others are trying to serve.
Typhoonpilot
03-28-2015 | 06:18 PM
#292
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,685
Likes: 0
From: "Prof" button manipulator
Actually, the only groups that are endangering U.S. airline workers are their own unions and the managers of those airlines who do not see that the 4-5 billion people outside of the USA and Western Europe need airline service. If they would think creatively and be a little more bold, instead of scared, then they may actually devise plans and strategies that could capture some of the revenue available from the 4-5 billion people they are not currently serving. You know, the ones that EK, EY, and QR among others are trying to serve.
Typhoonpilot
Typhoonpilot
Man, you missed your calling as an Airline CEO! What are you doing pushing the "fly button" for Emirates when your knowledge and insight could be put to so much better use!
03-29-2015 | 08:24 AM
#293
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 536
Likes: 0
From: Right Seat 737, Front seat T-6
I don't know about you but I don't consider a tax break is not a subsidy. That's just insipid spin. But like I said, it's chump change compared to the subsidies you are getting, and you are being subsidized by a country that isn't even your own. It's bad enough you get subsidies from the emirates, but from the USA to boot? Really?
And if you don't consider a tax break a subsidy, then all the ME3 have to do to make you happy is give their airlines huge tax breaks that your company won't get ... Like landing fees, for instance?
And you are proving my point, that you cannot argue intelligently about this when you say "it's only chump change." To YOUR airline, maybe, but ask all your company's competitors who don't get that tax break.
03-29-2015 | 08:38 AM
#294
Banned
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,655
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From: Narrow/Left Wide/Right
Actually, the only groups that are endangering U.S. airline workers are their own unions and the managers of those airlines who do not see that the 4-5 billion people outside of the USA and Western Europe need airline service. If they would think creatively and be a little more bold, instead of scared, then they may actually devise plans and strategies that could capture some of the revenue available from the 4-5 billion people they are not currently serving. You know, the ones that EK, EY, and QR among others are trying to serve.
Typhoonpilot
Typhoonpilot
But the money is where the other airlines are already serving not in those locations or they would not be "underserved" as you claim. Capitalism is pretty good at finding and filling a market that is "underserved".
03-29-2015 | 08:47 AM
#295
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From: Narrow/Left Wide/Right
Hmm, not sure I understand your point ... The article didn't mention those three but it did mention the Big US3... Not saying other airlines might not benefit in other states, but this does seem to be a subsidy to the Big US3, at the expense of other U.S. airlines. So, I expect those on here to be equally outraged at this unfair subsidy?
On Wednesday, March 18, a majority of the North Carolina Senate signed onto an economic incentive bill that would let American Airlines’ handout expire at the end of the year. The break is a cap on the amount of sales tax on jet fuel American pays, expected to be worth $15.5 million next year.
On Thursday, March 19, the Illinois House Revenue and Finance Committee voted in favor of a bill to close a tax loophole that United Airlines and American Airlines use to avoid paying millions in local sales taxes.
On Friday, March 20, the Georgia Senate passed a transportation funding package that would end Delta Air Lines’ tax break. The bill, which passed the House earlier in March, would eliminate the state’s estimated $25 million sales tax break on jet fuel for airlines.
On Wednesday, March 18, a majority of the North Carolina Senate signed onto an economic incentive bill that would let American Airlines’ handout expire at the end of the year. The break is a cap on the amount of sales tax on jet fuel American pays, expected to be worth $15.5 million next year.
On Thursday, March 19, the Illinois House Revenue and Finance Committee voted in favor of a bill to close a tax loophole that United Airlines and American Airlines use to avoid paying millions in local sales taxes.
On Friday, March 20, the Georgia Senate passed a transportation funding package that would end Delta Air Lines’ tax break. The bill, which passed the House earlier in March, would eliminate the state’s estimated $25 million sales tax break on jet fuel for airlines.
Some states tax it as the same of gasoline which can be argued isn't exactly fair as very little "road use" is associated with it.
In these states they sometimes adjust the tax load on jet fuel down.
Some states are so expensive on jet fuel taxes that airlines will actually tanker fuel to avoid that extra expense.
If your airline has a hub in one of these states, you use a preponderance of the jet fuel sold in the particular state.
So you say that Delta receives a "tax break" because the state set the jet fuel tax at a lower level at some point.
Probably the same in the other states with hubs, it's usually done because the states see the hub status as a large economic benefit and they want to maintain that status vice make it economical for the airlines to move hub operations to other locations.
So your argument is that the states should tax the heck out of aviation fuel/operations because unless the tax load is unbearable, it must be a subsidy?
03-29-2015 | 08:58 AM
#296
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Huh? I work for a U.S. airline.
And if you don't consider a tax break a subsidy, then all the ME3 have to do to make you happy is give their airlines huge tax breaks that your company won't get ... Like landing fees, for instance?
And you are proving my point, that you cannot argue intelligently about this when you say "it's only chump change." To YOUR airline, maybe, but ask all your company's competitors who don't get that tax break.
And if you don't consider a tax break a subsidy, then all the ME3 have to do to make you happy is give their airlines huge tax breaks that your company won't get ... Like landing fees, for instance?
And you are proving my point, that you cannot argue intelligently about this when you say "it's only chump change." To YOUR airline, maybe, but ask all your company's competitors who don't get that tax break.
Edit: And trust me, you really don't want to go through the process required to get that tax break. Get down on your knees and thank God that you haven't been there. It is really naïve on your part to think the tax break is a good thing. I only wish that process on the me airlines, but it isn't likely it will happen there any time soon.
03-29-2015 | 09:04 AM
#297
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The big rub in the US is how much to tax jet fuel.
Some states tax it as the same of gasoline which can be argued isn't exactly fair as very little "road use" is associated with it.
In these states they sometimes adjust the tax load on jet fuel down.
Some states are so expensive on jet fuel taxes that airlines will actually tanker fuel to avoid that extra expense.
If your airline has a hub in one of these states, you use a preponderance of the jet fuel sold in the particular state.
So you say that Delta receives a "tax break" because the state set the jet fuel tax at a lower level at some point.
Probably the same in the other states with hubs, it's usually done because the states see the hub status as a large economic benefit and they want to maintain that status vice make it economical for the airlines to move hub operations to other locations.
So your argument is that the states should tax the heck out of aviation fuel/operations because unless the tax load is unbearable, it must be a subsidy?
Some states tax it as the same of gasoline which can be argued isn't exactly fair as very little "road use" is associated with it.
In these states they sometimes adjust the tax load on jet fuel down.
Some states are so expensive on jet fuel taxes that airlines will actually tanker fuel to avoid that extra expense.
If your airline has a hub in one of these states, you use a preponderance of the jet fuel sold in the particular state.
So you say that Delta receives a "tax break" because the state set the jet fuel tax at a lower level at some point.
Probably the same in the other states with hubs, it's usually done because the states see the hub status as a large economic benefit and they want to maintain that status vice make it economical for the airlines to move hub operations to other locations.
So your argument is that the states should tax the heck out of aviation fuel/operations because unless the tax load is unbearable, it must be a subsidy?
03-29-2015 | 02:33 PM
#298
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 536
Likes: 0
From: Right Seat 737, Front seat T-6
The big rub in the US is how much to tax jet fuel.
Some states tax it as the same of gasoline which can be argued isn't exactly fair as very little "road use" is associated with it.
In these states they sometimes adjust the tax load on jet fuel down.
Some states are so expensive on jet fuel taxes that airlines will actually tanker fuel to avoid that extra expense.
If your airline has a hub in one of these states, you use a preponderance of the jet fuel sold in the particular state.
So you say that Delta receives a "tax break" because the state set the jet fuel tax at a lower level at some point.
Probably the same in the other states with hubs, it's usually done because the states see the hub status as a large economic benefit and they want to maintain that status vice make it economical for the airlines to move hub operations to other locations.
So your argument is that the states should tax the heck out of aviation fuel/operations because unless the tax load is unbearable, it must be a subsidy?
Some states tax it as the same of gasoline which can be argued isn't exactly fair as very little "road use" is associated with it.
In these states they sometimes adjust the tax load on jet fuel down.
Some states are so expensive on jet fuel taxes that airlines will actually tanker fuel to avoid that extra expense.
If your airline has a hub in one of these states, you use a preponderance of the jet fuel sold in the particular state.
So you say that Delta receives a "tax break" because the state set the jet fuel tax at a lower level at some point.
Probably the same in the other states with hubs, it's usually done because the states see the hub status as a large economic benefit and they want to maintain that status vice make it economical for the airlines to move hub operations to other locations.
So your argument is that the states should tax the heck out of aviation fuel/operations because unless the tax load is unbearable, it must be a subsidy?
No, my argument is that some US airlines receive a state tax break that other U.S. & foreign airlines don't receive ... In other words, the same advantage the U.S. Big3 are saying that the ME3 are receiving.
And the amount does matter--I would think an honest person would agree that any subsidy is wrong, not just those that hurt MY / YOUR company.
03-29-2015 | 05:48 PM
#299
Banned
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
From: 737 NG CAPT.
Are the ME3 Airlines subsidized: YES
Are US Airlines subsidized: YES
Will Us Major Airlines be successful in shutting down Open Skies: NO
Is the sky falling for US Airlines International traffic: NO
There are too many unknowns at this point to see where all of the HUGE unprecedented growth in the ME3 will lead. Low oil prices and increasing losses and debt may slow Qatar and Etihad as their ability to make money is unknown due to their inner circle accounting practices. EK is here for the long haul but could suffer also in the short term with increasing Labor issues. The near future also has new entrants like Norwegian Shuttle and RyanAir moving in for the North Atlantic passengers. The one thing that is constant here is change. The real survivors will adapt and change and not become entrenched and cry wolf as the Union leaders and US Airline Managers are currently doing. Possible solutions include 1. Establishing Alliances. 2. More Competition through Mideast Hubs like Doha, Abu Dhabi and India. 3. Newer more efficient aircraft like 787s and A-350s doing point to point direct flying and avoiding a MidEast transfer. 4. Slowly shrinking to just a mostly Domestic Carrier with Niche market International Flights. Old Airplanes, Old Flight attendants and Crappy service are sure to accelerate their demise.
Are US Airlines subsidized: YES
Will Us Major Airlines be successful in shutting down Open Skies: NO
Is the sky falling for US Airlines International traffic: NO
There are too many unknowns at this point to see where all of the HUGE unprecedented growth in the ME3 will lead. Low oil prices and increasing losses and debt may slow Qatar and Etihad as their ability to make money is unknown due to their inner circle accounting practices. EK is here for the long haul but could suffer also in the short term with increasing Labor issues. The near future also has new entrants like Norwegian Shuttle and RyanAir moving in for the North Atlantic passengers. The one thing that is constant here is change. The real survivors will adapt and change and not become entrenched and cry wolf as the Union leaders and US Airline Managers are currently doing. Possible solutions include 1. Establishing Alliances. 2. More Competition through Mideast Hubs like Doha, Abu Dhabi and India. 3. Newer more efficient aircraft like 787s and A-350s doing point to point direct flying and avoiding a MidEast transfer. 4. Slowly shrinking to just a mostly Domestic Carrier with Niche market International Flights. Old Airplanes, Old Flight attendants and Crappy service are sure to accelerate their demise.
03-30-2015 | 07:21 AM
#300
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,184
Likes: 0
Are the ME3 Airlines subsidized: YES
Are US Airlines subsidized: YES
Will Us Major Airlines be successful in shutting down Open Skies: NO
Is the sky falling for US Airlines International traffic: NO
There are too many unknowns at this point to see where all of the HUGE unprecedented growth in the ME3 will lead. Low oil prices and increasing losses and debt may slow Qatar and Etihad as their ability to make money is unknown due to their inner circle accounting practices. EK is here for the long haul but could suffer also in the short term with increasing Labor issues. The near future also has new entrants like Norwegian Shuttle and RyanAir moving in for the North Atlantic passengers. The one thing that is constant here is change. The real survivors will adapt and change and not become entrenched and cry wolf as the Union leaders and US Airline Managers are currently doing. Possible solutions include 1. Establishing Alliances. 2. More Competition through Mideast Hubs like Doha, Abu Dhabi and India. 3. Newer more efficient aircraft like 787s and A-350s doing point to point direct flying and avoiding a MidEast transfer. 4. Slowly shrinking to just a mostly Domestic Carrier with Niche market International Flights. Old Airplanes, Old Flight attendants and Crappy service are sure to accelerate their demise.
Are US Airlines subsidized: YES
Will Us Major Airlines be successful in shutting down Open Skies: NO
Is the sky falling for US Airlines International traffic: NO
There are too many unknowns at this point to see where all of the HUGE unprecedented growth in the ME3 will lead. Low oil prices and increasing losses and debt may slow Qatar and Etihad as their ability to make money is unknown due to their inner circle accounting practices. EK is here for the long haul but could suffer also in the short term with increasing Labor issues. The near future also has new entrants like Norwegian Shuttle and RyanAir moving in for the North Atlantic passengers. The one thing that is constant here is change. The real survivors will adapt and change and not become entrenched and cry wolf as the Union leaders and US Airline Managers are currently doing. Possible solutions include 1. Establishing Alliances. 2. More Competition through Mideast Hubs like Doha, Abu Dhabi and India. 3. Newer more efficient aircraft like 787s and A-350s doing point to point direct flying and avoiding a MidEast transfer. 4. Slowly shrinking to just a mostly Domestic Carrier with Niche market International Flights. Old Airplanes, Old Flight attendants and Crappy service are sure to accelerate their demise.
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