Middle East carrier subsidies
03-25-2015, 08:47 AM
#251
Doesn't Get Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,598
Originally Posted by Whip Whitaker
I keep hearing this "Billions of dollars in subsidies" being tossed around. Would you mind being more specific? Cash infusions? Discounted fuel?
By the way here is Emirates Fiscal Report for the last year with the Independant Auditors Report by PriceWaterhouseCoopers on page 65.
Annual Report | Facts & Figures | The Emirates Group
EK Load Factor was just shy of 80% last year with flights to the US in the mid 80's load factor with comparabily priced tickets to US Airlines. Doesn't sound like flying empty planes to me.
As far as subsidies there is some serious selective memory going on here. Just a few years ago Delta received financing from the Canadian Export Bank to buy RJ's for their regionals.
They also received 50 million in subsidies from Pennsylvania when purchasing their oil refinery.
Also money from Minnesota to expand a call center.
I could go on but I hope I have made my point.
By the way here is Emirates Fiscal Report for the last year with the Independant Auditors Report by PriceWaterhouseCoopers on page 65.
Annual Report | Facts & Figures | The Emirates Group
EK Load Factor was just shy of 80% last year with flights to the US in the mid 80's load factor with comparabily priced tickets to US Airlines. Doesn't sound like flying empty planes to me.
As far as subsidies there is some serious selective memory going on here. Just a few years ago Delta received financing from the Canadian Export Bank to buy RJ's for their regionals.
They also received 50 million in subsidies from Pennsylvania when purchasing their oil refinery.
Also money from Minnesota to expand a call center.
I could go on but I hope I have made my point.
GMAB. Subsidies for a call center??
The 3 ME carriers are getting BILLIONS in government subsides and are hiding it illegally so they will be in compliance with open skies. That is a much different issue than Delta getting a couple million for a call center and and RJ's. They are breaking international law and want access to the U.S. aviation market.
They have never been able to win anything playing by the rules. First they let the U.S. discover, develop, build, and market their entire oil infrastructure then turned around and nationalized it. Now they want in on the U.S. aviation market.
I didn't say they were flying empty planes, I said they were flying them at a loss. They can do that because the government subsidizes them. Delta could charge $5 a ticket and be full all day long, but wouldn't make money. You proved my point.....thanks. I think PriceWaterhousCoopers did Enrons audits as well.
03-25-2015, 08:48 AM
#252
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,184
Originally Posted by Whip Whitaker
Ain't nuthin keeping Delta or anyone else from starting SEA-DXB or MCO-DXB service. The mayor of Orlando even went out to Dubai to push for Emirates to fly into MCO.
Mayor Buddy Dyer and Orlando airport execs visit Middle East - tribunedigital-orlandosentinel
By the way EK is flying the 777 into both destinations not the 380.
Mayor Buddy Dyer and Orlando airport execs visit Middle East - tribunedigital-orlandosentinel
By the way EK is flying the 777 into both destinations not the 380.
03-25-2015, 08:57 AM
#253
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,569
Whip,
Do normal economics somehow not apply to the ME3? Unprecedented growth plans, lavish amenities onboard, lavish terminals, etc, etc. I assume you have been around long enough to wonder how this is all happening without a "little help". It's not just the US3 that are having a problem with this. All the Western European airlines, the Canadians, Australia and probably soon, if not already the Cathay's, Singapore's, JAL, etc. All these airlines combined probably don't have the wide body fleets and orders that 3 airlines from countries that are probably smaller than Rhode Island. Doesn't add up. You may work there and have a vested interest in their success, but at least be honest that something stinks.
Do normal economics somehow not apply to the ME3? Unprecedented growth plans, lavish amenities onboard, lavish terminals, etc, etc. I assume you have been around long enough to wonder how this is all happening without a "little help". It's not just the US3 that are having a problem with this. All the Western European airlines, the Canadians, Australia and probably soon, if not already the Cathay's, Singapore's, JAL, etc. All these airlines combined probably don't have the wide body fleets and orders that 3 airlines from countries that are probably smaller than Rhode Island. Doesn't add up. You may work there and have a vested interest in their success, but at least be honest that something stinks.
03-25-2015, 10:12 AM
#255
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
Originally Posted by NewPil0t
EU governments are not about to really join this fight.
Emirates operates more A380s than Qantas, Lufthansa, Airfrance and British Airways combined, and holds 1/2 of the remainder order book.
Emirates operates more A380s than Qantas, Lufthansa, Airfrance and British Airways combined, and holds 1/2 of the remainder order book.
But if you're getting help from your uncle the Sheik, well...
03-25-2015, 10:20 AM
#256
Doesn't Get Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,598
Originally Posted by NewPil0t
Emirates operates more A380s than Qantas, Lufthansa, Airfrance and British Airways combined, and holds 1/2 of the remainder order book.
03-25-2015, 12:45 PM
#257
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Right Seat 737, Front seat T-6
Posts: 536
A thouughtful article:
The US Carriers Show Their Case Against Middle East Carriers, But Will Anyone Care? | The Cranky Flier
And a humorous one to lighten the mood:
http://www.thenational.ae/business/a...-playing-field
The US Carriers Show Their Case Against Middle East Carriers, But Will Anyone Care? | The Cranky Flier
And a humorous one to lighten the mood:
http://www.thenational.ae/business/a...-playing-field
03-25-2015, 01:17 PM
#258
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
Originally Posted by Whip Whitaker
I keep hearing this "Billions of dollars in subsidies" being tossed around. Would you mind being more specific? Cash infusions? Discounted fuel?
By the way here is Emirates Fiscal Report for the last year with the Independant Auditors Report by PriceWaterhouseCoopers on page 65.
Annual Report | Facts & Figures | The Emirates Group
EK Load Factor was just shy of 80% last year with flights to the US in the mid 80's load factor with comparabily priced tickets to US Airlines. Doesn't sound like flying empty planes to me.
As far as subsidies there is some serious selective memory going on here. Just a few years ago Delta received financing from the Canadian Export Bank to buy RJ's for their regionals.
They also received 50 million in subsidies from Pennsylvania when purchasing their oil refinery.
Also money from Minnesota to expand a call center.
I could go on but I hope I have made my point.
By the way here is Emirates Fiscal Report for the last year with the Independant Auditors Report by PriceWaterhouseCoopers on page 65.
Annual Report | Facts & Figures | The Emirates Group
EK Load Factor was just shy of 80% last year with flights to the US in the mid 80's load factor with comparabily priced tickets to US Airlines. Doesn't sound like flying empty planes to me.
As far as subsidies there is some serious selective memory going on here. Just a few years ago Delta received financing from the Canadian Export Bank to buy RJ's for their regionals.
They also received 50 million in subsidies from Pennsylvania when purchasing their oil refinery.
Also money from Minnesota to expand a call center.
I could go on but I hope I have made my point.
03-25-2015, 01:28 PM
#259
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 264
Originally Posted by NewPil0t
EU governments are not about to really join this fight.
Emirates operates more A380s than Qantas, Lufthansa, Airfrance and British Airways combined, and holds 1/2 of the remainder order book.
Emirates operates more A380s than Qantas, Lufthansa, Airfrance and British Airways combined, and holds 1/2 of the remainder order book.
Violeta Bulc, the EU Transport Commissioner, announced that she will seek a new mandate from EU member states to open talks with Middle East states on a comprehensive air services agreement to address unfair competition from subsidized, state-owned airlines.
Last week, Germany and France requested the mandate in a joint letter from Alain Vidalies, French Secretary of State for Transport and Alexander Dobrindt, his German counterpart, who warned that “European airlines are losing market share against the Gulf companies, because of their unfair competitive practices, and in particular because of the significant public subsidies and guarantees they enjoy.” In addition, France and Germany have each imposed a freeze on additional flights by the Gulf carriers into their countries until a resolution is reached on the issue of subsidies.
“We applaud the EU for taking this important step. It’s a strong signal of the momentum that’s been generated as more and more people learn about the billions of dollars in unfair subsidies that Qatar and the UAE are pumping into Qatar Airways, Etihad Airways and Emirates Airline,” said Jill Zuckman, spokesperson for the Partnership for Open & Fair Skies. “European countries understand all too well that the subsidies the Gulf carriers receive are distorting the marketplace and costing jobs. We believe the United States government should follow suit and similarly ask to freeze additional flights.”
03-25-2015, 02:05 PM
#260
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Position: DHC8
Posts: 151
Originally Posted by Jaded N Cynical
Wrong. They are already in this fight.
Violeta Bulc, the EU Transport Commissioner, announced that she will seek a new mandate from EU member states to open talks with Middle East states on a comprehensive air services agreement to address unfair competition from subsidized, state-owned airlines.
Last week, Germany and France requested the mandate in a joint letter from Alain Vidalies, French Secretary of State for Transport and Alexander Dobrindt, his German counterpart, who warned that “European airlines are losing market share against the Gulf companies, because of their unfair competitive practices, and in particular because of the significant public subsidies and guarantees they enjoy.” In addition, France and Germany have each imposed a freeze on additional flights by the Gulf carriers into their countries until a resolution is reached on the issue of subsidies.
“We applaud the EU for taking this important step. It’s a strong signal of the momentum that’s been generated as more and more people learn about the billions of dollars in unfair subsidies that Qatar and the UAE are pumping into Qatar Airways, Etihad Airways and Emirates Airline,” said Jill Zuckman, spokesperson for the Partnership for Open & Fair Skies. “European countries understand all too well that the subsidies the Gulf carriers receive are distorting the marketplace and costing jobs. We believe the United States government should follow suit and similarly ask to freeze additional flights.”
Violeta Bulc, the EU Transport Commissioner, announced that she will seek a new mandate from EU member states to open talks with Middle East states on a comprehensive air services agreement to address unfair competition from subsidized, state-owned airlines.
Last week, Germany and France requested the mandate in a joint letter from Alain Vidalies, French Secretary of State for Transport and Alexander Dobrindt, his German counterpart, who warned that “European airlines are losing market share against the Gulf companies, because of their unfair competitive practices, and in particular because of the significant public subsidies and guarantees they enjoy.” In addition, France and Germany have each imposed a freeze on additional flights by the Gulf carriers into their countries until a resolution is reached on the issue of subsidies.
“We applaud the EU for taking this important step. It’s a strong signal of the momentum that’s been generated as more and more people learn about the billions of dollars in unfair subsidies that Qatar and the UAE are pumping into Qatar Airways, Etihad Airways and Emirates Airline,” said Jill Zuckman, spokesperson for the Partnership for Open & Fair Skies. “European countries understand all too well that the subsidies the Gulf carriers receive are distorting the marketplace and costing jobs. We believe the United States government should follow suit and similarly ask to freeze additional flights.”
Wait, most of the Airlines operating this airframe are Government owned anyway.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
