Ab initio begins at jetBlue
09-24-2015, 11:20 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 420
Originally Posted by Macjet
As a former military member I wouldn't be too quick to compare a new training program to the 'military' standard. Rucker and the AF C-130 program consistently produce the worst pilots that I've ever had the privilege of sharing the flight deck with. I hold Alaskan bush Beach 1900 pilots in higher regard than a lot of our military trained pilots. I can however see the merits of training guys/gals in an Airbus from day one as more beneficial than time building in a Cessna 210. The key will be keeping these eager beavers from driving down hard earned pay and benefits gains. Otherwise we become a bunch of SJS regional pilots driving Airbus/Boeing equipment.
09-25-2015, 01:45 AM
#32
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,945
Just some issues:
- it "cheapens" the work all others have put into this career. It has taken many pilots years of flying and experience to get to this level.
- "just happy to be here" times 10000. These guys will walk into a CBA and a major airline job making 50K+ and 100k+ within a few years at likely 25 years old. It will be hard to believe they will stand with their fellow pilots on issues our Union fights.
- day VFR will be an emergency.
- they will likely be great guys and girls and fun to be around, will have great CRM and know the planes and their systems well. They will probably also do well reading a QRH when needed. When it really hits the fan and I need someone to brainstorm with and bounce ideas off of it's nice to have experience. You simply don't know what you don't know. This doesn't have to be single engine over mountains, this could be divert under marginal weather and fuel issues while working one or two other minor problems.
- upgrade. We will now need an hour requirement like a regional...seniority + 6000 hours. These pilots may get the 190 out of training and after 2.5 years, no equipment lock and get the 320 left seat in Kennedy. Get called out on an island red eye turn on reserve and their FO is....another an initio pilot.
We foot zero of the bill until they are on property and once they are here, they are paid per the contact. It's dissapointing we are lowering the bar when we have so many qualified applicants. The ONLY reason we are doing this is for attrition, these pilots will never leave...because no one else would hire them.
- it "cheapens" the work all others have put into this career. It has taken many pilots years of flying and experience to get to this level.
- "just happy to be here" times 10000. These guys will walk into a CBA and a major airline job making 50K+ and 100k+ within a few years at likely 25 years old. It will be hard to believe they will stand with their fellow pilots on issues our Union fights.
- day VFR will be an emergency.
- they will likely be great guys and girls and fun to be around, will have great CRM and know the planes and their systems well. They will probably also do well reading a QRH when needed. When it really hits the fan and I need someone to brainstorm with and bounce ideas off of it's nice to have experience. You simply don't know what you don't know. This doesn't have to be single engine over mountains, this could be divert under marginal weather and fuel issues while working one or two other minor problems.
- upgrade. We will now need an hour requirement like a regional...seniority + 6000 hours. These pilots may get the 190 out of training and after 2.5 years, no equipment lock and get the 320 left seat in Kennedy. Get called out on an island red eye turn on reserve and their FO is....another an initio pilot.
We foot zero of the bill until they are on property and once they are here, they are paid per the contact. It's dissapointing we are lowering the bar when we have so many qualified applicants. The ONLY reason we are doing this is for attrition, these pilots will never leave...because no one else would hire them.
09-25-2015, 04:19 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: Left,Right, Left, Right,Right,Left, Right, Left
Posts: 3,150
Pretty sure one of our guys on BP.com nailed it.
This is nothing more than an F&H negotiating tactic.
What will you give up to make this go away? I hope nothing. Let them spin this up and watch it fail, just like "thanks is for not flying".
This is nothing more than an F&H negotiating tactic.
What will you give up to make this go away? I hope nothing. Let them spin this up and watch it fail, just like "thanks is for not flying".
09-25-2015, 05:21 AM
#35
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Narrow/Left Wide/Right
Posts: 3,655
Originally Posted by Otters
Qualified pilots get hired by JB, qualified pilots turn around to go for more lucrative job at legacy or cargo(no offense to present employee group). If 1 in 4 to 1 in 5 leave; expensive and time consuming. Solution; a training contract with a long length of stay.
09-25-2015, 05:28 AM
#36
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Narrow/Left Wide/Right
Posts: 3,655
Originally Posted by Macjet
As a former military member I wouldn't be too quick to compare a new training program to the 'military' standard. Rucker and the AF C-130 program consistently produce the worst pilots that I've ever had the privilege of sharing the flight deck with. I hold Alaskan bush Beach 1900 pilots in higher regard than a lot of our military trained pilots. I can however see the merits of training guys/gals in an Airbus from day one as more beneficial than time building in a Cessna 210. The key will be keeping these eager beavers from driving down hard earned pay and benefits gains. Otherwise we become a bunch of SJS regional pilots driving Airbus/Boeing equipment.
The main thing that helps the military build low time pilots to send around the world is the fact that since they are not a business, they can freely waste resources, and often do.
They have improved the attrition of late by better screening and pre-flight trying flying aptitude lessons, but just 20 years ago the military would freely attrite student pilots throughout the training pipeline and unless you were in a protected class, you were done.
Most businesses would be incapable and unwilling to adopt that type of program.
09-25-2015, 05:46 AM
#37
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,122
Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand
Pretty sure one of our guys on BP.com nailed it.
This is nothing more than an F&H negotiating tactic.
What will you give up to make this go away? I hope nothing. Let them spin this up and watch it fail, just like "thanks is for not flying".
This is nothing more than an F&H negotiating tactic.
What will you give up to make this go away? I hope nothing. Let them spin this up and watch it fail, just like "thanks is for not flying".
We have interns running the company, why not the cockpit.
09-25-2015, 05:50 AM
#38
SDQ Base Chief
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 320 CA
Posts: 5,588
Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand
Pretty sure one of our guys on BP.com nailed it.
This is nothing more than an F&H negotiating tactic.
What will you give up to make this go away? I hope nothing. Let them spin this up and watch it fail, just like "thanks is for not flying".
This is nothing more than an F&H negotiating tactic.
What will you give up to make this go away? I hope nothing. Let them spin this up and watch it fail, just like "thanks is for not flying".
Someday the company will come crying to us that we have too many senior pilots on year 12 pay and zero attrition. Count on that.
09-25-2015, 02:29 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 363
Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand
Pretty sure one of our guys on BP.com nailed it.
This is nothing more than an F&H negotiating tactic.
What will you give up to make this go away? I hope nothing. Let them spin this up and watch it fail, just like "thanks is for not flying".
This is nothing more than an F&H negotiating tactic.
What will you give up to make this go away? I hope nothing. Let them spin this up and watch it fail, just like "thanks is for not flying".
Can we now focus on the Fly Now Grieve Later, horrible policy?
If we allow that we are too weak. And few bucks months and months form now will not compensate for the time lost.
Am I really the only one concern with that?
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