Papoo

Hence I said 'most'.

My point stands in its entirety. The US legacies are an embarrassment. And an expensive one at that.

ALL of the competition across both oceans is leaps and bounds superior, and priced better.

If the aforementioned carriers screwed up as badly as the US carriers, JAL included, they wouldn't exist today. Perhaps the elimination of the legacies would have been a good thing in the long run - painful to start, but would have farmed the emergence of new, non-dinosaur carriers, which may actually be able to compete.

Crying bloody murder over this is hypocritical on many levels. This constant cherry picking of perceived unfairness is hysterical.

Whether it's employment costs, employment law, chapter 11, product, service, price, it's all just noise.

If you can't compete, accept it. Do a Delta, and adapt your model.

CousinEddie

Funny you say the US legacies can't compete when, at the moment, they are the most profitable airlines in the world. That can change quickly, but for now that's the way it is. Long delayed product investments are being made, so time will tell if the service gap closes or not.

What you call crying over this boils down to wanting to avoid a race to the bottom, which you seem more than willing to embrace. If flying that 777 of yours for what tycoons like Mr. Kjos thinks you are worth is fine by you, then I'll just have to accept being put out to pasture eventually. Congratulations, you will have won. Just don't ever complain about it.

Papoo

They are the most profitable (for now), and that is a good thing. But, let's not be hypocritical about how they got there. They wouldn't exist in many other parts of the world.

Perhaps the service gap will widen or close. Use that to tackle the problem, instead of crying foul.

As for me, I have 5 years in the airline industry, this year I'll average at least $15,000 after tax each month, working 12-14 days a month, have never earned less than $100,000 a year since my short stint as an instructor, and I never had to suffer the indignity of the US 'ladder climbing' in the hope of a livable job. So no, you won't hear me complaining.

But, thanks for bringing me into it.

NAI and its conditions suck. I wish the best for everyone in the industry, no more so than in the biggest aviation market in the world, the US. There may well be a global race to the bottom in progress, but it's going to be hard to stop on the basis of falsely claiming rules are being broken.

My point is that nothing illegal is going on with NAI. Rules vary between countries, and companies exploit where they can. If the US carriers could exploit loopholes elsewhere, they would. Stop crying foul and let the market speak. When it speaks, adapt to it.

CousinEddie

My advice, from my days of "ladder climbing" (oh, the indignity) and far more years in the industry than yourself......start saving as much of that paycheck as you can each month. You'll most likely be glad that you did sooner than you might think.

Papoo

That's something we can both agree on..

Flytolive

The Uber drivers that I have had are superior to and higher paid than taxi cab drivers. That is not the case with NAI. NAI is not the Uber of the airlines.

Flytolive

Classic. Do you have any idea why you enjoy the pay and benefits that you do? Do you think it is your beloved 'market' speaking? Ignorant or hypocrital? Take a look in the mirror and get back to us.

Qotsaautopilot

Papoo,

Let me guess, you don't have any kids and are single? You seem to have no idea what it takes to save for their college, weddings, you're own retirement, insuring your own life, insuring against losing your medical, and also being able to life in the greatest nation in the world while doing all of that.

It takes a strong collective bargaining agreement that pays not only solid wages but also work rules and benefits that allow one to achieve the goals I mentioned above. If that means also doing whatever it takes to protect the best pilot employment market (the USA) in the world by stopping flag of convenience from proliferation then that is what we should do. Even at the risk of being called hypocritical.

Winston

Exactly. I wouldn't be so quick to dance on the grave of the legacy airlines: The only reason your income and quality of life exist at that level is because of the heavy lifting performed by generations of legacy US pilot groups who have preceded you.

Classic example of a guy who was born on third base, but thinks he hit a triple...

APCLurker

A whole 5 years? Quite the accumulation of airline experience there.

As others have said, have you ever given a moments thought as to how/why you are earning what you are?