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Old 04-16-2016, 11:35 AM   #91  
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Originally Posted by Flytolive View Post
More utter BS

Actually, I am confident that we will when life inevitably deals you a big dose of reality.

Exactly.
Must be great to know everything.

I didn't realise I was on third base. Yey me.

Idiot.

PS. NAI just got approved. Not sure if you heard.

That'll be that fee market thing again. That ALPA have zero interest in or control over.

Do they have ALPA to thank for their horrid conditions? Or is it just CX?

Thanks all the same ALPA. You've been great.
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Old 04-16-2016, 11:50 AM   #92  
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That'll be that fee market thing again.
Oops. Your Freudian slip is showing. The Swire folks must love you. I'll take the 49ers.
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Old 04-16-2016, 12:05 PM   #93  
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The reason some overseas carriers have to pay well is because they need to poach pilots from countries that train pilots and paying pilots a wage comparable or better to what they make at home is the only way they can get them to move to some godforsaken or overcrowded shiit hole of a country. That's how Emerites did it in the lost decade. They are only losing pilots now because wages at home have come up because of the Union. Yes the industry as a whole in the USA is stronger than it has been in some time but wages would be much much lower if it weren't due to being unionized. There are far to many pilot dreamers and hobbist willing to do the job for fun. Wages would dramatically drop if it weren't for unions. You saw what we all worked for in the lost decade. Why wouldn't they just leave wages at that level? Not many walked away during that time period they just *****ed all the way down the jetway.

And if the flag of convenience model proliferates enough it will once again put pressure on the US carriers to make cuts to compete and there goes wages again. It's not just wages either. It's retirement, benefits, and job security as well. I know I sure don't want to be bouncing around the world every few years trying to find that next contract and funding my own retirement out my ever decreasing wages while I watch my kids grow up on FaceTime. The entrenched legacy carriers of the US and Europe are the only places you can be a pilot earning a reasonable living and also having the stability knowing that you won't have to move your family to some third world shiit hole every few years. Because the good places on earth to raise a family won't be paying as well as the ****holes if this flag on convenience scheme takes off. The shipping and cruise industry don't pay anymore which is why it mostly employs citizens of the third world and works them like slaves.
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Old 04-16-2016, 12:26 PM   #94  
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Move over legacy incumbents. If someone can provide a service that is both better and cheaper, then they deserve to gain market share, even if it's at the expense of an old entrenched company.

Netflix did it to Blockbuster. Uber is doing it to taxi cab companies. Tesla is doing it to other automakers (particularly autodialers). I don't see the issue with NAI...
And Frank Lorenzon did it to ALPA. What a shame you were too young cause there was a line I bet you would have gladly crossed.
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Old 04-16-2016, 12:58 PM   #95  
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Here is a good read that fits in well with this thread:


Andreas Lubitz and the Global Pilot Scam Threatening Your Safety - The Daily Beast
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Old 04-16-2016, 01:18 PM   #96  
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Well Papoo, it's reassuring to know that you've got it all figured out!

Thank you for your contribution to the profession...
Don't worry, he'll plow the airplane into the ground eventually. Or someone from his ****hole airline will.
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Old 04-16-2016, 04:48 PM   #97  
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There are a lot of misconceptions and incorrect statements in this thread.

First of all is the accusation that Norwegian is trying to back-end it way into the USA-EU 'Open Skies' agreement. The argument is that Norway, not being an EU country, is not covered and thus a Norwegian company has to set up a shell company in an EU nation in order take advantage of the 'Open Skies' agreement. While it is correct that Norway is not a member of the EU, Norway (and Iceland - which is also not an EU member, contrary to a claim made on this thread), was included into the EU-USA 'Open Skies' treaty in a June 2011 amendment. Article 2 of the 2011 Amendment reads: "The provisions of the Air Transport Agreement, as amended by the Protocol, shall apply to Iceland and Norway as though they were Member States of the European Union, so that Iceland and Norway shall have all of the rights and obligations of Member States under that agreement. The provisions of the Annex to this Agreement form an integral part of this Agreement." So the claim that Norwegian needs to form its Irish subsidiary to take advantage of the 'Open Skies' agreement is false. The full 2007 Open Skies treaty, the 2010 and 2011 Amendments are all available on the US State Department website.

Air Transport Agreements Between the U.S. and the European Union

The second claim that has been made is that Norwegian Air International is not going to operate within Ireland. These claims are also incorrect as NAI has announced plans to fly from both Cork and Shannon.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/business...yaI/story.html

Shannon confirms deal with Norwegian Air | The Clare Herald

I am not posting this as a sign I am in favour of Norwegian. But I am saying that if you are going to oppose something, at least oppose it based on facts, not falsehoods.
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Old 04-17-2016, 05:15 AM   #98  
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Originally Posted by NEDude View Post
There are a lot of misconceptions and incorrect statements in this thread.

First of all is the accusation that Norwegian is trying to back-end it way into the USA-EU 'Open Skies' agreement. The argument is that Norway, not being an EU country, is not covered and thus a Norwegian company has to set up a shell company in an EU nation in order take advantage of the 'Open Skies' agreement. While it is correct that Norway is not a member of the EU, Norway (and Iceland - which is also not an EU member, contrary to a claim made on this thread), was included into the EU-USA 'Open Skies' treaty in a June 2011 amendment. Article 2 of the 2011 Amendment reads: "The provisions of the Air Transport Agreement, as amended by the Protocol, shall apply to Iceland and Norway as though they were Member States of the European Union, so that Iceland and Norway shall have all of the rights and obligations of Member States under that agreement. The provisions of the Annex to this Agreement form an integral part of this Agreement." So the claim that Norwegian needs to form its Irish subsidiary to take advantage of the 'Open Skies' agreement is false. The full 2007 Open Skies treaty, the 2010 and 2011 Amendments are all available on the US State Department website.

Air Transport Agreements Between the U.S. and the European Union

The second claim that has been made is that Norwegian Air International is not going to operate within Ireland. These claims are also incorrect as NAI has announced plans to fly from both Cork and Shannon.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/business...yaI/story.html

Shannon confirms deal with Norwegian Air | The Clare Herald

I am not posting this as a sign I am in favour of Norwegian. But I am saying that if you are going to oppose something, at least oppose it based on facts, not falsehoods.
Thanks for posting, I had some misconceptions. Is there anything prohibiting the 'flag of convienience' to get around labor laws? The Norway labor laws are more restrictive than Ireland, which I assume would be the main reason for establishing the air carrier certificate there.
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Old 04-17-2016, 05:55 AM   #99  
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It seems that the best corse of action now might be to change the icao charter to include working conditions and hiring standards. To truly make a free market a world market there must be equal rules. Icao seems to be the way to do that.
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Old 04-17-2016, 08:35 AM   #100  
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i cant keep up with alpas boogeyman. i thought it was me3 carriers but i guess we are now back to norwegian. will stand by for an alpa email to tell me what to be scared of next.
It's time to grow up and defend the profession if you want to fly Airliners for a living.
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