Opus

Scoop,

I guess we will have to agree to disagree with what NWA brings to the table but out of curiousity, if so many DAL pilots are so anti-merging why did you allow your MEC to pursue it? DAL approached NWA, yes?

The management argument for this merger, not mine, is pricing power. When R. Anderson was at NWA he said we had to get greater control on pricing our product and thus the lack of demand ergo expansion didn't work for him, under his stewardship (and I do think he is a solid CEO) NWA shrank. The problem is that the LCC carriers expanded and thus no pricing control was ever gained.

I am against this merger b/c I do not believe the two cultures would mix well. I do not believe we would gain greater pricing power and DAL is carrying more debt than we are and we have more money than DAL in the bank. At least that is what is posted on our boards. (around 4B now, funny how that works post paycuts). Like nw320driver I am a 96 hire flying the 330 and my wife and I live below what I make, and yes I do believe we are all underpaid lest us not detract on that, so selling three years of my seniority isn't worth a 10% raise.

Red/Green. I'm obviously a blue book guy so I will endeavor to tell it the way each side sees it. The red guys (original nwa) see that they bought a bk company in republic in 1986 for cash (back then nwa didn't have any debt and owned everything on its property). NWA also did not hire from 69 to 79 and with almost half of its fleet being widebody the pilots hired between 79 and 86 were about to move up rapidly to widebody postions. The republic argument is that they brought a domestic feed to NWA that Pan Am never obtained and look what happened to Pan Am. DOH should be standard they argued to defend the diginity of the profession. Further, it enabled NWA to expand and control DTW, our most profitable hub. If NWA didn't buy Republic another carrier would have and DTW might have been lost. Date of hire was awarded but with a 20 year fence up around all respective airplanes that each airline brought to the table, unless there were insufficient bidders i.e dc-9 fo etc. So, the green book pilots got their date of hire but have been unable to bid the widebody airplanes, for the most part, and the redbook pilots kept their rights to the widebody aircraft however they will always be junior. Thus, both sides have expressed, to their blue book FOs, their discontent. Right or wrong that is how it went down. The so called Roberts award officially ended Jan 1, 2006.

The question must be asked is merging out of necessity or short term financial gain. If it is the former then we should work out our seniority differential and endeavor to make this work. If it is the latter, then we should do all we can to stop this merger.

newKnow

Dude,

Let me give you what the average "generous" position is from their perspective. Ratios:

Your NWA ratio at NWA is at 70% of the list. (11/96 hire)

Insert you into the DAL list at 70% around 4986 out of 7124.

That is right behind a 3/98 hire.

They will say you are "ONLY" losing a year and a half of seniority.

But, what will not be pointd out is that there will be 1221 pilots on the list ahead of you that are junior to you.

Without ratios and going straight DOH you would be 3765 on their list behind their 11/18/96 class. (Thats without taking away 15 days of longevity from you for the 98' strike, which I would consider to be an insult)

This may very well be plausable for them. But, I'm sure most of them haven't seen how crazy it can be at an airline even with DOH.

They may think they want a ratioed list, but they don't. It will take 30+ years for the airline to get over the bickering/griping/fighting.

DOH with fences is they way to go.

New K Now

newKnow

Same here. Nothing personal from me. I see your side and I hope you guys see our side.....

nw320driver

Thanks for the info newKnow. Just trying to find out where I would sit. 1200 junior pilots is a hard pill to swallow.

TwoDogs

Arbitration is a fancy word for BOHICA. Ask Alaska, USAIR pilots, etc. Both sides risk everything and short of finding the arbitrator in bed with a blowup doll or on the take from one group, the arbitrator's decision is nearly impossible to undo. I have always been fascinated by why anyone would go through aribtration--it is a system that automatically ties up both interests into one person, way too many chances for a bad outcome. The best answer is mediation, then if neither party can agree, then go to either litigation or arbitration--in that order.

Do we want to reward expectancy or DOH? I think NWA has about 50-60 ropes who came back to life, so that gaggle will block momentum, add age 65 and yeah things are more complicated for everyone. Fences would be smart, ratios to ensure that any offsets in either companies respective fleets are provided are other considerations, but 3:1 or even 2:1 would be a non-player. The challenge is that someone's short term opportunity could be someone else's long term reality and create unfair windfalls. I say DOH with fences, for 15 years as there is not much overlap, what arguably remains are route integration, economies of scale on both fuel and maintenance.

Scoop

I guess he answered your question. I certainly think the best we could hope for is for everyone to hold the same seniority on the same euipment at the same base after and before any merger - no gain for either side at the others expense. But if you sit at the same percentage before and after the merger how are 1200 junior pilots jumping ahead of you? Because you were hired at NW before they were hired at DAL? You are only senior to pilots hired after you at your own company - we have no national seniority list which is why we have all this trouble. If you are 70% before and 70% after it seems pretty fair to me. By the way I also think fences are the way to go as do most of the DAL pilots - funny that seems to be the only thing we agree on.
Anyway it seems likes both pilots groups are pretty much against this deal. Lets just hope it goes away. I agree with you Opus - I don't think this merger will help the companies anyway. Both managements are telling labor and politicians that they will not close any bases, layoff any workers, or change service to any communities - so where will all the efficiencies come from? I think the one time consolidation costs will be in the hundreds of millions if not over a billion $ - it will take a lot of administrative and management efficiencies to make that up. I guess we all tend to look at this from our own perspective - hopefully if it does happen we can do a little better than the last mergers and come up with something halfway equitable but if history is a guide we have our work cut out for us. Thanks for the kind words Red Dog- its good to see some people can still have an intellectual discussion without getting emotional.
Scoop

nw320driver

Yea that's the plan now, but we have all seen how management can change their minds each new quarter. "Oh employees, buy the way, things aren't going as well as we planned, we need to adjust and close a few bases".

Scoop, Thanks for your perspective on the deal. I am sure that there is going to be enough pain for both pilot groups if this deal goes though.

slowplay

Ahh, but there's that "golden share" thingy. NWA hooks up with ALA, CAL is free to dance for the price of $100. Steenland's hands are tied.

It would be a fun show, though. DAL could get left high and dry with no dance partner. And integrating NWA and ALA, one with a frozen DB and geriatric fleet, the other with a young pilot group, ongoing DB and young fleet would be fun to watch. CAL/UAL or DAL/UAL would still be the revenue monster combinations, and either would still be number one to Asia. Then there's always AMR, awash in cash and missing out on the Pacific. Think they might have an interest in fragmentation?

Opus

Hey slowplay,

I just now read your insulting response, which is the exact arrogance of why many of us want no part of the DAL crowd. You say I don't like facts, well hey why don't you take a minute and educate yourself before your start spewing your facts. I'll be specific and please make the effort to talk to your union before you respond.

1) Nationwide 60% of all pilots at major carriers do not make it to 60.

2) The average age of a NWA pilot is 52 and we have over 2500 pilots that are over the age of 50.

3) Fifth freedom rights allow NWA and UAL to fly out of NRT to other points in Asia. No other carrier can do that.

4) You think it is as easy as just ordering airplanes and expanding within? Have you seen the pricetag and waiting list for new airplanes? As for point to point flying in Asia you can do that already the problem with point to point flying is you risk carrying 50 people from Portland to Bangkok like DAL use to do on the L-1011.

5) You keep talking about how old our fleet is but you never seem to mention some of your aging md-88s.

6) You talk about facts yet you never answered my question about why, then, did your union and company approach us? And is your goal by your on going bashing of NWA to get us to believe that we are so inferior to your greatness that we should readily and hapily accept being stapled to your list. That won't happen.

7) I am taking it, just from reading your obtuse posts, that you are probably junior at DAL probably less than two years and yes you specifically have a lot on the line. I personally believe that if we do merge there will be furloughs (my opinion only) and yes new hires would lose their widebody right seat position.
-sidenote don't think for one second that R. Anderson won't shrink DAL if he deems it necessary. NWA got smaller under his stewardship.

8) If UAL is so great, please go match up with them. Seriously.

finis72

Guys and gals,
I guess I'm a minority but I think strategically this is a great match.Both airlines bring lots to the party.Short term it is going to be a mess with expectations on both sides not being met.Maybe our MEC's will agree maybe not,still 2 very proud companies. Good luck to ya'll.